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Difference Believing and Knowing

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by dc87, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid You can put that Kryponite away now! No, really! Supporter

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    That's garbage. And if you believe it, then that may be one reason why you have difficulty in being a Christian. Or maybe you're expecting moral qualities to be demonstrated by those who claim to be Christian, BUT you're not seeing the expectedly instant moral results, so you discount it all. What say you?
     
  2. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would say belief is the initial step and that is what the Bible refers to as faith. That is walking with God each day in relationship.

    Knowing is what can happen as people experience God in their lives and get to a point where their faith has grown to that point.

    Don’t worry about other people or compare yourself to them. Just start taking small steps of faith and supplement with prayer and the Bible.
     
  3. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    in religion "enlightenment" comes/can come in both steps and suddenly.
     
  4. ldonjohn

    ldonjohn Active Member

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    dc87,

    You sound just like me forty years ago when I asked the same questions, but the internet was not an option back then so I talked to people who were Christians. I was raised in church where I heard the Gospel just about every Sunday, but for some reason I never fully understood the “believe in Jesus” part of salvation. Consequently, as a young adult, I found myself doubting my “salvation” at age 13. Like you I questioned the scriptures that stated that the devil believes in Jesus. Another thing that was confusing to me was that if the bible is true then the devil knows that Jesus is the Son of God, and the devil cannot be saved, but I had heard people say that they are Christians because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So, the most confusing part about “believing in Jesus” was the meaning of “believing.”

    Below is a link to my testimony if you would be interested in reading how I found the real meaning of “believe in Jesus.”

    My testimony

    Just in case you don't want to read a lengthy testimony I'll explain the truth I found about “believing” and how I found that truth.

    I had never read anything in the bible, except at church, and that was only because we were asked to turn to the book of X chapter xx verse x, and honestly back then my mind was not thinking about God. But, now that I WAS concerned about my relationship with God, one night I sat down at the kitchen table, opened a bible to the Gospel of John, and began reading in John 1:1. As I read there the Holy Spirit opened my spiritually blind eyes and allowed me to understand the truth found there. Now I will admit that I don't pretend to understand everything about the bible, God, and Jesus, but I did find the answer about “believing in Jesus” as I read in the Gospel of John.

    The Holy Spirit showed me that I was looking at myself, at the things “I” was doing instead of looking at what Jesus had already done. He showed me that my faith was in “my faith.” As I read through the Gospel of John the Holy Spirit changed my focus from “self” and pointed me to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. To make this short & simple I'll just say that He, the Holy Spirit, convinced me that when Jesus went to the cross He took my sins with Him there. The Holy Spirit totally & completely convinced me that when just before Jesus died He said “it is finished” that Jesus was saying He had just paid my sin debt to God, “paid in full.” Being convinced by the Holy Spirit of the matter is the same as “knowing.”

    Based on my personal experience I would define believing in Jesus as being convinced by the Holy Spirit, through the Gospel message, of the truth that Jesus took care of my sin problem when He died on the cross & shed His blood there, and as a result of being convinced of that truth I was moved in my spirit by a overwhelming sense of relief resulting in an immediate transfer of confidence from self to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. I would also define being “born again” in the same way, because the process involves the Holy Spirit giving the new believer the new life in Christ.

    John
     
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  5. AservantofGodandthelordJC

    AservantofGodandthelordJC Member

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    Belief is a required step towards knowing.
     
  6. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    I expect to see an INSTANT and life long lasting feeling of salvation and security. That has been described by MANY MANY people who say they are believers. It is also notated in the Bible. So yes, if I don't experience this than yes I discount any sort of sense of me being saved as garbage.
     
  7. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid You can put that Kryponite away now! No, really! Supporter

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    Where does it say that? Let's do some hermeneutical questioning of the verses and contexts involved.
     
  8. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    This fogginess of a process is what makes people like me confused. It is obvious God exists. Which God? is the question. To me it seems as if the God of the Bible fits history the best therefore He is most likely the God who exists. So... so far I believe in the God of the Old Testament. I don't feel as I have the Holy Spirit. Never have.

    So then it becomes... well you must believe in the God of the New Testament... ok then... that begs the question: "is Jesus actually the savior He said He was?" And no one can truly know the answer on this earth as far as I know unless they've seen Him.... or can they?
     
  9. dc87

    dc87 Member

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  10. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    Coming to know Christ...as revealed by the spirit...the truth of the matter Paul spoke about, the mystery being revealed (within, as Jesus said the Kingdom is within) "Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory. The duality within (Romans 7) is promised to come to an end and we will KNOW as we have always been known...'dimly at first...but then face to face'....The same spirit that rose Jesus from the grave lives within us...as long as we perceive Christ as something outside/separate from 'self', there is no single of eye Matthew 6:22...and the body ...is the temple God not made with human hands...
     
  11. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid You can put that Kryponite away now! No, really! Supporter

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    Titus 3:5? Don't you find it kind of strange that in the same letter, and IF the Holy Spirit supposedly INSTANTLY washes and regenerates each believer COMPLETELY and IRREVOCABLY, that Paul still has to tell Titus to in turn to regularly exhort the members of the church to do all of the things in Titus Chapter 2? Moreover, the simply proof-texting you've done with Titus 3:5 doesn't really provide us with a self-explanatory statement that connotes as much meaning as you IMPUTE into it. All we can see is that, at this point, God the Holy Spirit has moved into the hearts of each person and begun the work of regeneration. There's nothing here about some instant and complete removal of sin--no Wesleyan theology is shout out at us here.

    Again, you're prooftexting without considering ALL of the other verses which also come to bear upon the meaning of the verse in question. Chapter 8, as a whole, says that WE have to make an effort each day to WALK IN STEP with the Spirit. Again, why does Paul need to tell us to do this if we're already fully saved and completely renovated people?

    .....................this verse has to do with epistemological issues involving our being able and willing to understand God's Will. This says little to nothing about having been renovated completely by the Spirit.

    ..............this verse just says that when we become Christians, God Himself 'seals us' by His power. It doesn't say anything about cleaning you or me up once and for all at that specific moment of time.

    I don't know what church you've attended by which you come by these unfortunate interpretations that you hold onto, but I'd suggest getting some books on hermeneutics and finding a different church....PRONTO! You're just doing this spiritual sabotage to yourself, and for no really good reason.

    Just sayin'.........cause I care, and I think you can find your way with Christ, and without all of the mix up.
     
  12. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    The process is simple unless you spend a lot of time thinking about it:

    All mature adults sin (no need for a process with that part), sin (the hurting of others) is initially (at least in the beginning) a burden on the conscience (this is automatic). There are all kinds of ways to try and relieve the burden of sin, but only one way works consistently and over time (this can take some time, but rationally the person can draw this conclusion). Giving up on self and turning toward the benevolent Creator (you hope is there) and trusting in such a Creator will allow the person to be showered with unbelievable gifts.

    Just because you have no realization of the Holy Spirit does not mean you are “lost”, but you could be lost. Christians can be unaware of the Spirit through false teaching, lack of teaching, lingering doubts and being immature. Paul in Acts 19:1-7 ran across 12 men who were believers, but had only received John’s baptism and knew nothing about the Holy Spirit, so they underwent Christian emersion believer water baptism and received the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit.
     
  13. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    Ummmmm.... perhaps I should go verse by verse here. Considering the context of Titus 3:5 (since you believe I did not) it speaks of our sinfulness in Titus 3:3, then in 3:4 speaks of the love of God revealed, then in 3:5 not by our works we are saved but he SAVED US THROUGH the renewing of the Holy Spirit. So yes it IS INSTANT unless we are not SAVED instantly. Nobody is talking about an instant angelic sinless rebirth. What we ARE talking about is an instant spirit rebirth, one that supposedly comes INSTANTLY with desires to be more like the Savior, to be more inline with what God wants us to be, to have a desire to be less and less sinful - in fact appalled when do actually we sin. This is what we are talking about and this is what I seek and do not have and yes it should be instant as 100% of christians describe, not gradual.
     
  14. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    I'd like to believe God would be more direct than that and especially not require a 5 minute physical baptism ritual to determine the route of eternity.
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ok. So you believe in the God of the Old Testament and that is good. The same God.

    So why do you have trouble believing that Jesus was sent as the Messiah? The Old Testament promises a Messiah, so that is in line with what you say you believe.

    Why do you not think Jesus is that Messiah? Are you expecting a future Messiah to fulfill the Old Testament ?

    Also, I will add that nothing in the Old Testament supports this idea of knowing for sure. That is more a New Testament concept with the indwelling Holy Spirit sent to us by Christ.

    There is very little of the Holy
    Spirit or knowing in the Old Testament.
     
  16. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you think that God should make the process of restoring Hos Creation back to Himself complicated?

    John the Baptist was the forerunner to Christ who baptized people unto repentance.

    Seems in line and Jesus Himself
    Was baptized by John the Baptist when He started His ministry.

    So Jesus Himself recognized it’s importance.

    So why do you doubt it’s importance if Jesus made it important?
     
  17. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Baptism is not for God to determine anything, but It is something God promoted to help us realize we have been reborn. It is physical, but it corresponds to what is happening Spiritually so we can better relate, supports our emotions to what is happening.
     
  18. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yup. It is also usually a public declaration to others. We publically declare our faith.
     
  19. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid You can put that Kryponite away now! No, really! Supporter

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    What I want to make clear is that when Paul says to Titus that we are "saved through the renewing of the Holy Spirit," we understand this to mean that the Holy Spirit has entered in and BEGUN the process of cleansing. So while it's true that once we accept Christ, we 'instantly' receive the Holy Spirit, it isn't true that the work of the Holy Spirit is also completed at that same moment.

    Anyway, it seems to me that all you're talking about that you don't 'feel' any desire to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Is this right? Or am I still misunderstanding what you're saying?
     
  20. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    I can feel and experience and see the creation of God. Not Jesus - or I should say... creation speaks to the existence of God... it does not speak of God paying for my evilness.

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    the word "...in him should..." is αὐτὸν [ John 3:16 Greek Text Analysis ]
    which is used to refer to both God and man alike, therefore I do not know if it is referring to God himself or another entity.

    Then the next verse seems to make a distinction [ John 3:17 Greek Text Analysis ] between God and the Son. Also see 1 John 5:10, John 6:40, 1 John 4:15, John 6:29...

    If there is not a distinction then I could simply paraphrase "For God so loved the world, that he gave Himself, that whosoever believeth in God should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Or in the case of 1 John 4:15 a paraphrase "If anyone acknowledges that God is God, God lives in them and they in God."
    John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in God who God has sent."

    Now THIS would make sense... and by this everyone who believes in God is saved including all the Orthodox Jews and pretty much anyone who acknowledges his Creator. But is this case? The verses seem to try to make a stark distinction. Also, according to most Christians and churches, make a distinction as well saying that those who do not believe on JESUS (a distinction from a Creator in general) is not saved.

    Therefore there needs to be a confirmation in nature or life in general for one to believe in this distinguished part of God (this "Jesus") that is not readily apparent. Otherwise it is going to be difficult for me to attain a first hand acquaintance with Someone other than what is referred to in the Old Testament (and what all orthodox Jews believe in) as God.

    Exactly which is why I know I believe in the God of the Old Testament. Not sure about the new. I don't rightly know of this Holy Spirit.

    Because I was baptized. Didn't have any affect as far as I can tell.

    .... faith in what? God who many across the world and different "religions" believe in ... or a separate entity? An entity that makes Christians more special and have a place in heaven... other than say buddhists and possibly muslims who also believe and respect an all powerful Creator but do not happen to believe in a special Trinity.
     
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