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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
J
Jazer
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Are you saying you can do whatever you want and NOT get sick. They say if you do not follow the diet and guidelines then you are at greater risk for heart disease.
Now what is the difference between that and religion. They are both saying the EXACT same thing. There is no difference. You break the rules and you will suffer the consequences. What you sow is what you will reap. Sow seeds of destruction and you will reap destruction.
Unless you want to argue that cancer and heart disease do not destroy the body but you would have to argue against science to do that.
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Cabal
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Urgh, not this again.
Cancer is a naturalistic consequence - it happens deterministically, there is no volition involved in cells turning cancerous.
Punishment for sin - as well as the concept of sin itself - is entirely concocted and imposed by God. It is a deliberate act, and an unjustifiably disproportionate one at that.
Equating consequences of sin with your hand burning on a hot stove or whatever is nothing short of disingenuous.
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J
Jazer
Guest
Yep and God in His love for you tries to warn you. There is NO volition on Gods part. He is the Creator, just like Ford creates a car. The manufactor gives you advise on how to maintain that car. God gives you advice on how to maintain the body that He gives you. If you ignore the owners manual IE the Bible then there will be naturalistic consequences. You even admit that there will be consequences. We can agree that God just wants what is best for us and there is no volition on His part.
You want to accuse God of NOT being JUST? I think your wrong. IF ANYTHING God is just. He is absolute and perfect Justice. His scales are exact. There is no room for any error at all.
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Cabal
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Wrong.
What is sinful is relative to his commands, which he volitionally utters.
He admits people to heaven, or sends them to hell, based on his own volition.
You are completely and utterly wrong.
Wrong. Sin is an entirely supernaturalistic concept.
No, I do not admit that there are the consequences to sin that you believe there are. I assume the concept of sin and its consequences are true to show how they conceptually contrast with naturalistic consequences. Don't get over-excited. Just so we're clear - there is no evidence for sin. There is no evidence for heaven or hell. There is no evidence for your God.
YES, i DO want TO accuse GOD of not BEING just!
You think my wrong what?
How can justice be absolute when his judgment is based on what is sin or not - and given that we've had a fall, two covenants etc, the definition of sin has changed, ergo it's not absolute. And a subjective whimsical morality is hardly perfect. Your claim is self-refuting.
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American Heart Association Guidelines
Guidlines, Jazer. They make recommendations based on what the science says . Science does not tell us what to do. As you acknowledge it simply tells us the possible outcome based on our actions. Science, though, does not say do this or that. Ethics and morality are purely human concepts, not something hard coded into the universe.
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American Heart Association Guidelines
Guidlines, Jazer. They make recommendations based on what the science says . Science does not tell us what to do. As you acknowledge it simply tells us the possible outcome based on our actions. Science, though, does not say do this or that. Ethics and morality are purely human concepts, not something hard coded into the universe.
Actually, there is evidence that moral behavior may in fact be "hard coded" into DNA. There is at least evidence that altruistic activity is not simply a "human" behavior.
These little monkeys share altruistic trait with humans, UW study shows - JSOnline
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J
Jazer
Guest
Accuse away, this is between you and Him, it has nothing to do with me. I can only share with you what I believe and what I have found to be true. What you do with that is up to you.
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J
Jazer
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Science today happens to agree with what Moses wrote 3500 years ago. At least the diet that we receive from the American Heart Association. Maybe someday the American Diabetic Association will come up with guidelines for people to avoid getting Diabetic. I bet when they do, their findings will agree with what Moses wrote 3500 about the proper diet and the proper food we are to eat.
How Fatty Diets Cause Diabetes
ScienceDaily (Aug. 15, 2011) — Newly diagnosed type 2 diabetics tend to have one thing in common: obesity. Exactly how diet and obesity trigger diabetes has long been the subject of intense scientific research. A new study led by Jamey D. Marth, Ph.D., director of the Center for Nanomedicine, a collaboration between the University of California, Santa Barbara and Sanford-Burnham Medical Research Institute (Sanford-Burnham), has revealed a pathway that links high-fat diets to a sequence of molecular events responsible for the onset and severity of diabetes.
High-fat diet and obesity cause beta cells to lose their ability to sense glucose in the blood. Left: Pancreatic beta cells from a mouse on a standard diet. Right: Pancreatic beta cells from a mouse fed a high-fat diet. (green=glucose transporters, red=insulin, blue=DNA) (Credit: Marth laboratory, Sanford-Burnham/UCSB)
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
PAscals Wager? I dont think it can do any harm to pray once in a lifetime "If theres anyone out there who can help, then please help" and to leave it at that. But then again one could be waking a serpent...
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I find it repugnant that I should believe in something because of what is essentially an argument from final consequences, rather than because it is the right thing to believe based on the evidence. Sorry.
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Science today happens to agree with what Moses wrote 3500 years ago. At least the diet that we receive from the American Heart Association. Maybe someday the American Diabetic Association will come up with guidelines for people to avoid getting Diabetic. I bet when they do, their findings will agree with what Moses wrote 3500 about the proper diet and the proper food we are to eat.
How Fatty Diets Cause Diabetes
ScienceDaily (Aug. 15, 2011) — Newly diagnosed type 2 diabetics tend to have one thing in common: obesity. Exactly how diet and obesity trigger diabetes has long been the subject of intense scientific research. A new study led by Jamey D. Marth, Ph.D., director of the Center for Nanomedicine, a collaboration between the University of California, Santa Barbara and Sanford-Burnham Medical Research Institute (Sanford-Burnham), has revealed a pathway that links high-fat diets to a sequence of molecular events responsible for the onset and severity of diabetes.
High-fat diet and obesity cause beta cells to lose their ability to sense glucose in the blood. Left: Pancreatic beta cells from a mouse on a standard diet. Right: Pancreatic beta cells from a mouse fed a high-fat diet. (green=glucose transporters, red=insulin, blue=DNA) (Credit: Marth laboratory, Sanford-Burnham/UCSB)
Think you can focus enough to quit derailing your own topic? So you acknowledge that science does not dictate right from wrong yes?
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There is quite a bit of evidence that we have a tendency towards certain behaviors, true. However, there is no universal "Morality" that we have been able to determine so far.
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I think the term "so far" is the critical part of your last sentence. Just keep in mind that the "moral behavior" could in fact be programmed into the DNA since many behaviors seem to be "innate". They may also form "naturally" in any "civilized" society (of any species). We don't know yet.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
You need not believe but just have to take a hypothetical attitude. Then again, youre a free man and can do as you see fit.
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Split Rock
Conflation of Blathers
Pascal's Wager is a poor argument. You cannot worship all gods excusively at the same time.
Most atheists and agnostics live a "good" life by our society's standards. Many Christians would say that isn't good enough, because one must accept Jesus as their savior.
BTW Jazer, I see you as a "die hard skeptic and scoffer" of science. Just so you know.
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jayem
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Really? I don't recall the Bible saying anything about limiting saturated and trans fats, and restricting sodium to 1.5 gms/day. AFAIK, the OT says not to eat animals that don't have a cloven foot and don't ruminate. And not to eat certain birds, and sea creatures without fins and scales. Though Jesus and Paul later say you can eat pretty much anything. I don't see exactly how this matches up with current specific recommendations. But I suppose you can interpret scripture any way you like. (BTW, Genesis says not to eat the hindquarter of an animal without removing the sciatic nerve and attached blood vessels. Which makes no scientific sense at all.)
And what about a woman being unclean (meaning, among other things, off-limits for sex) for 1 month after giving birth to a boy, and 2 months after delivering a girl? And not wearing garments of mixed wool and linen? If there are any reasons, other than ritualistic, to follow these directives, I've never heard of them.
These are all nothing but ancient tribal customs. All cultures have such. You might attach some modern relevance to them, if you force them to be interpreted in the loosest possible sense. But so what?
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You know I love you, but....
Virtually all modern religions are monotheistic in nature. While it's technically correct that you cannot satisfy the religious beliefs and requirements of all religions simultaneously, all monotheists agree that there is but one God. You can chose to be 'grateful' to that one God (no other religious requirements) for the gifts of life, or not. It's really your decision and takes place within you anyway. You can chose to appreciate and "worship" one God in a way that works for you, assuming you want to. I'm sure God would appreciate it.
I suppose that depends on how one defines "good life" and whether or not they are applying the core tenets that Jesus taught, or not. If not, well, it's probably a "relative" sort of "good life" IMO.
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I know plenty of non-Christian good people, and a lot of them are atheists and some are other religions
ooops....I just realized this was moved from another board....was wondering why atheists were posting on it
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