Did you know Calvinists believe that?

[bradfordl]

RICK!

Please post your most commonly encountered misconceptions and your favorite answers and/or websites and/or links to articles.

Responses need to be short n' sweet for quick copy+pasting.

These were just a few common misconceptions about calvinism I run into. Didn't post any answers because it didn't seem necessary - especially in S. R.

Just havin' fun, bro. Maybe you missed the OP. I'm OK, but appreciate the concern.

Blessings

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[Elect]

Did you know Calvinists think that man is nothing more than puppets with God as the puppeteer?

To be a puppet for God. What more could a Christian ask for?


__________________________
Does one choose to be a Calvinist or is ones left with no choice, but to be an Arminian? LOL

 

[Zaznaykin]

How important is Calvinism to Presbyterians?

 

[tulipbee]

How important is Calvinism to Presbyterians?

They teach the Bible. Calvinism just confirms it in an organized way. It's quicker to learn about the Bible reading Calvinism but the church teaches straight from the Bible and it's Word alone

Tulipbee

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Dontcha love it when we get accused of 'bad exegesis'?

Here's the some of a post of mine from a thread on election, and someone had said The healing occurred for me at the instant I responded to the Gospel message. :

The healing actually occurs in the instant before you responded...so that you can respond to the Gospel message. How does the heart that has not yet been regenerated respond to the Gospel message? Scripture is very clear on this

[Eleven sciptures expressing total depravity]

Let’s think about this for a minute. The unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God?

God first regenerates our spirit...takes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh...and then we are able to respond to the Gospel message.

Remember..."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:16

And here's a reply:

Too bad none of your paragraph is exegeted from the Rom 9:16 text. "It" is referring to the "children of the promise" mentioned earlier in Rom 9 of which Isaac and Jacob are types of salvation by faith in Christ vs Ismael and Esau as types of salvation by works of the law. Your poor interpretation would have Paul contrast salvation by predestination vs salvation by works of the law. Paul never expresses your view in Romans or any other epistle. Instead, he expressly says that Romans ch 9 is about salvation by faith in Christ vs salvation by works of the law in his summary statement Romans 9:30-31

 

[heymikey80]

Dontcha love it when we get accused of 'bad exegesis'?

Here's the some of a post of mine from a thread on election:


And here's a reply:
Too bad none of your paragraph is exegeted from the Rom 9:16 text. "It" is referring to the "children of the promise" mentioned earlier in Rom 9 of which Isaac and Jacob are types of salvation by faith in Christ vs Ismael and Esau as types of salvation by works of the law. Your poor interpretation would have Paul contrast salvation by predestination vs salvation by works of the law. Paul never expresses your view in Romans or any other epistle. Instead, he expressly says that Romans ch 9 is about salvation by faith in Christ vs salvation by works of the law in his summary statement Romans 9:30-31

You're right. This is a head-smacker.

Let's say "It" really is the children of the promise. If "salvation by faith", as he says, is "not a result of man's effort", then what is it?

Where is law contrasted with election here in Romans 9? It's not! It's a pursuit of righteousness, contrasted with righteousness by faith -- no pursuit, no striving, no effort at all.

So why'd he mention it? The "poor exegesis" here is his.

The lack of effort involved in faith concludes that the Gentiles rely on God's mercy. Thus election by God's mercy is obviously consistent with a reliance (== faith) on God's mercy.

 

[JonF]

I actually got this question at my college group the other day:

Q. You know that Calvinism is unbiblical, right?

A. You know beating your wife is unbiblical, right?

 

[elf_lady_9]

here's one: Calvinists are cruel, sadistic people who have to believe that God chooses people to rot in Hell to be happy in their own salvation.

He is serious and I happen to agree that those who worship a different God aren't saved. It isn't a matter of Arminianism verses Calvinism but one of who is God in Christ. I would love to be able to say that they are but I am convinced from the Scriptures that they worship a different God than I do. This doens't make me hate them but causes me to desire even more to preach the Gospel to them.

i agree with what you're saying, Arminianism in its purest form is practically like another kind of religion. but you also have to take into account whether the person is totally Arminian or just has some Arminian ideas, and also whether or not they actually believe what those ideas logically have to lead to. for example i think that if you follow certain Arminian teachings, than you logically have to conclude that God is not all powerful, which is blasphemy. but i have many "arminian" friends who would never in a million years say that. they believe God is omnipotent just as i do. they just are blinded to the fact that they can't believe the one thing without believing the other.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

i agree with what you're saying, Arminianism in its purest form is practically like another kind of religion. but you also have to take into account whether the person is totally Arminian or just has some Arminian ideas, and also whether or not they actually believe what those ideas logically have to lead to. for example i think that if you follow certain Arminian teachings, than you logically have to conclude that God is not all powerful, which is blasphemy. but i have many "arminian" friends who would never in a million years say that. they believe God is omnipotent just as i do. they just are blinded to the fact that they can't believe the one thing without believing the other.

I think you're speaking a lot of truth here. That's why I refuse to say the Armininans I know are unsaved. They recoil in horror at the thought that God is not in control according to their theology and they refuse to accept that conclusion to the positions they hold. I think God saves the elect even if their logic is inconsistent.

The ones I worry about are the ones who agree with the ultimate end of Arminian philosophies and are kinda in your face about it.

 

[heymikey80]

I actually got this question at my college group the other day:

Q. You know that Calvinism is unbiblical, right?

A. You know beating your wife is unbiblical, right?

Have you noticed how hard it is to answer something like that? I guess I focus too much on the actual forensics of the statement.

What are people referring to when they say something by this? Where does this "unbiblical" accusation come from? Of course other than saying, "Calvinism is eeeeevil!"

OK, it's been 25 years, but I was in a Bible study in college, too. A then-close friend of mine said something disparaging about predestination, and I asked him why he said that. He said predestination wasn't biblical. So I ... obviously ... asked about Rom 8:29-30 (and later Eph 1). As we were in a study that was simply "discovery", I didn't cart them out except to ask why these weren't predestination.

He became a Calvinist. I was amazed. Not even an argument. I think it came out so well because we were pretty much considering each other as equals, and weren't trying to act "better" than we were. We knew one another very well, and knew we didn't know everything. We were in exchange of information more than indoctrination. But it always haunted me afterward, where did that idea come from.

 

[JonF]

He became a Calvinist. I was amazed. Not even an argument. I think it came out so well because we were pretty much considering each other as equals, and weren't trying to act "better" than we were. We knew one another very well, and knew we didn't know everything. We were in exchange of information more than indoctrination. But it always haunted me afterward, where did that idea come from.

I really think it comes from the habit many churches form of the parishioner only looking to the pastor for interpretations of scripture. If my pastor said it’s unbiblical, it must be mentality.

 

[JonF]

I think you're speaking a lot of truth here. That's why I refuse to say the Armininans I know are unsaved. They recoil in horror at the thought that God is not in control according to their theology and they refuse to accept that conclusion to the positions they hold. I think God saves the elect even if their logic is inconsistent.

Almost all the Armininans I know are not Armininansnot foremost based on scripture but on personal assent of what would be a “just” God. They fail to see how a just God could work through irresistible grace. But this supposes that grace is owed to each man, and that is what worries me about Armininan's salvation.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I actually got this question at my college group the other day:

Q. You know that Calvinism is unbiblical, right?

A. You know beating your wife is unbiblical, right?

i fight the problem of the double question every time i hit it.

the best/worst time was when a highway patrol asked if i minded if he looked in my car's truck.

i suspect he will ask people if they read philosophy first, then ask the double question about the truck....*grin*


but that still doesn't compare to the time i told a border patrol checkpoint that i wasn't smuggling Jews.


so that i am actually on topic, for a change.


we have a small spanish speaking church trying to get into the Presbytery.
the Pastor studied with ours informally for several years over lunch before he became reformed. and sadly is paying quite a cost, more than 1/2 the church left and the Presbytery seems reluctant to waiver seminary as a requirement to be ordained....

so it does happen.
but i don't think you can predict what God will do with it from there.

 

[heymikey80]

Hm. Maybe it's just hearsay, but I've heard from at least one pastor in the Potomac presbytery that David Coffin did not graduate from seminary, at least not before he was ordained. Maybe it's worth a little contacting. I think he pastors New Hope Presbyterian church in Fairfax, VA? He's quite prominent in PCA General Assembly as well as the Potomac Presbytery. It's not so much a degree that must be presented, as learnedness, which allows a pastor to deal with his flock from a point of knowledge.

 

[prayerbone]

Hmmm could this be one if calvinism is true

calvinist should be the humblest of believers but they often seem to be the proudest?
aj

 

[heymikey80]

Hmmm could this be one if calvinism is true

calvinist should be the humblest of believers but they often seem to be the proudest?
aj

I think the basic problem is this -- people are generally considered to be smug if they think (1) people are all wrong, (2) they have the best perspective on reality, and (3) they represent God to the world.

As Calvinists hold that position, they will be considered smug. It doesn't really matter how warm or inviting a Calvinist is, when people hear something like that they jump to the conclusion.

And then they'll arrogate any number of other evils onto that smugness: pride, arrogance, superiority, bigotry, ignorance, pettiness, etc.

It does happen that some Calvinists hang onto these human attributes! (In fact all Calvinists think they are also wrong. They hang onto to some sinfulness in their lives -- the theology says so.) And so people can point to those as vacuous confirmation: "See! x is arrogant, and x is Calvinist, and so Calvinism encourages arrogance!"

But this is a logical fallacy. It's over-generalization, stacking the deck to prove their point from a limited number of examples. And for that matter, most Calvinists I know are far more humble than other believers I know. It simply has to be that way when we Calvinists reflect on our own Total Inability, and what God has gone through to gain us eternity.

 

[bradfordl]

calvinist should be the humblest of believers but they often seem to be the proudest?

Well, if you're like me (a sinner), anybody that doesn't agree with my take on things, and won't be convinced, or seems more knowledeable so I can't defeat them in debate, seems proud to me. Bit its more likely my own pridefulness making me think that way. God have mercy upon me, I am but a worm.

 

[prayerbone]

just because ur right and might even argue or debate the point, is not the reason ur seen as smug everytime ,its also down to the way u say it to..

for example on one thread here someone argued that calvinist were christians and armininans arnt even christians,thats just a ludcrious statement,one that most of ur foremost scholars wouldnt even make..go tell john piper or john macarthur u dont think wesley was saved, he'd die laughing

though im not a christian (was once hmmm i think ur say wasnt then)i still read a lot and listen to a lot of christian tapes etc as john piper says on his series on famous pastors etc j bunyan and j newton were two of the most humble people..

im not a calvinist and will never be one, in fact reading ur threads here put me off even more... that u have a thread on do babies go to heaven says it all really..if there not why hurt someone who might read the thread ? this afternoon my nephew was here sat on my lap and i looked at him and thought about that thread ,how well wesley described calvinisam that it makes God worse then satan..

be it wesley or calvin it matters little, both are men and have finite minds trying to discribe a infinite God

anyhow im in to many forums so have a good one byeeeee
andy

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

did not Jesus look up to G_d with eyes open and pray

thank you father for hiding this from the scholars and educated,
and revealing it to babes(infants, His disciples),

for this is Your Good Pleasure to do so. ???