Did you have to give up any moral principle or belief when you find Christ?

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yeshuaslavejeff

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If homosexuality was a mortal sin
?
.. it is as Jesus Clearly Says...
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Three Thousand Believe
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”…
Berean Study Bible ·
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What is the greater evil here?
There is no 'level' of sin that is acceptable at all in heaven. No thief is found there. No greedy person is there. No idolator nor anyone who bears false witness, at all, is there. No sinner is found in heaven, in the life to come, as Jesus clearly shows in God's Word.
 
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Sanoy

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There are only two correct answers to this question on the Christian Journey....Yes, and not yet.

It is fundamentally the case that we are vastly divergent from God's nature. I think that in most cases we are completely naive about our own nature, thinking that for the most part we are good. But we say that having little apparent challenge that would reveal our nature whereas the homosexual faces an overt and present challenge to ones moral identity. According to Paul in Romans 7 it is what we seek in our spirit that avails us of salvation, not the lack of challenge or lack of failure. In fact we should expect that challenge, and even to fail. We should be opening the veil of Christs nature more and more out of a desire to be more like Him by the transformation of our nature by the Holy Spirit. None of us are so natured that we will fulfill that pursuit without discovering a part of our old man (sin nature) alive and well and enter into great conflict. So yes, or not yet.

I think the pharisee and the tax collector parable in Luke 18:9-14 very much parallel the yes, and what it means to be a no who misidentifies their own nature.

“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”​
 
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jahel

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But one is not promiscuous by nature. You are free to remain faithful, be unfaithful or have some integrity and negotiate a mutual separation with your partner in order that you can see other people without committing adultery. Those options are not available to someone who is gay. They are not attracted to people of the opposite sex. If homosexuality was a mortal sin then a gay person's options would be limited to a life in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex or a loveless life on their own or in a relationship with someone that they were incapable of being attracted to. What is the greater evil here?
It depends on where your coming from. From a Christian point of view looking toward the intention there is just God’s view, which is toward spiritual adultery and I suppose the pot calling the kettle black.
 
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Doubting Brutus

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It depends on where your coming from. From a Christian point of view looking toward the intention there is just God’s view, which is toward spiritual adultery and I suppose the pot calling the kettle black.

Getting back to my original post, that creates this enormous stumbling block for seekers like me. The moral code I'm supposed to adopt seems worse than the one I have. The one I have is based on love, compassion and understanding. The one being offered is based on. . . definitely not those qualities.

If I manage to connect with Jesus (and I am searching) how am I supposed to live with myself if I buy my salvation by throwing others that I love and have compassion for under the bus?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Getting back to my original post, that creates this enormous stumbling block for seekers like me. The moral code I'm supposed to adopt seems worse than the one I have. The one I have is based on love, compassion and understanding. The one being offered is based on. . . definitely not those qualities.

If I manage to connect with Jesus (and I am searching) how am I supposed to live with myself if I buy my salvation by throwing others that I love and have compassion for under the bus?
THey are already far far far worse off than "under the bus", and eternally so unless they repent.
So, do you leave them in the condemned state they are in, and stay there with them because of false emotional feelings,
or do you get saved, then turn to save them, God Willing ?
 
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Emsmom1

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You weren't clear about what you wanted clarifying but I'll try to make my point clearer.

I am not gay but I can empathise with gay people as human beings. I have always and, I hope, always will support gay people in their struggle against persecution, bigotry and hatred. The reason? human empathy. If I was to meet Jesus on this road of discovery that I'm on there are many, many things that would need to be overcome. I would have knowledge of Jesus Christ in all his divinity (I could no longer be Agnostic) but I would face the very battle for my essence because it seems to me that scripture is fairly clear on the subject that gay people are wrong just for loving someone and that is anathema to me. It would place me in an absolutely terrible position where my own salvation would cost me my soul, or at least the soul that has got me this far being kind, generous, understanding, compassionate. etc Its a heck of a hurdle to get over to suddenly start throwing condemnation around.
I am a new Christian and I do have difficulties with this. My best friend is a gay man and it is hard for me to imagine that God wants him to either be with someone (a woman) he does not love or to be alone for the rest of his life. And even evangelical churches now admit that gay conversion therapy does not work.
But there are Christians who do not believe monogamous homosexual relationships are a sin. I attended a Presbyterian Church, USA, and they did not believe it is a sin (and were willing to preside over gay marriages). A Pew research study says 51% of evangelical Protestants in the Millennial generation and 32% of evangelical Protestant Baby Boomers say homosexuality should be accepted by society.
So, I am wondering: CAN one be an Christian and think monogamous homosexual relationships are not sinful? Or do others think these are not "real" Christians?
Also, how do evangelicals who think gay relationships are okay reconcile their beliefs with what the bible says?
 
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jahel

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Getting back to my original post, that creates this enormous stumbling block for seekers like me. The moral code I'm supposed to adopt seems worse than the one I have. The one I have is based on love, compassion and understanding. The one being offered is based on. . . definitely not those qualities.

If I manage to connect with Jesus (and I am searching) how am I supposed to live with myself if I buy my salvation by throwing others that I love and have compassion for under the bus?
I don’t know. Maybe look up the relationship between David and Jonathan and find some answers there.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Not in Christ. Not in truth.
So, I am wondering: CAN one be an evangelical Christian and think monogamous homosexual relationships are not sinful?
==================================
"Others" think mountains are molehills, choke on a gnat, and swallow a camel.
"Others" can be found who think Jesus is not God,
and Jesus is dishonored by them.
Or do others think these are not "real" Christians?
===================================
They believe what they are taught by false teachers/family/churches.
They don't necessary reconcile their beliefs - they just believe them.
It cannot be reconciled with Scripture nor with faith in Jesus the Messiah, not with abiding in Yahuweh Sovereign Creator Whose Word is Faithful and Truth, always.
Also, how do evangelicals who think gay relationships are okay reconcile their beliefs with what the bible says?
 
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Sanoy

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I am a new Christian and I do have difficulties with this. My best friend is a gay man and it is hard for me to imagine that God wants him to either be with someone (a woman) he does not love or to be alone for the rest of his life. And even evangelical churches now admit that gay conversion therapy does not work.
But there are Christians who do not believe monogamous homosexual relationships are a sin. I attended a Presbyterian Church, USA, and they did not believe it is a sin (and were willing to preside over gay marriages). A Pew research study says 51% of evangelical Protestants in the Millennial generation and 32% of evangelical Protestant Baby Boomers say homosexuality should be accepted by society.
So, I am wondering: CAN one be an Christian and think monogamous homosexual relationships are not sinful? Or do others think these are not "real" Christians?
Also, how do evangelicals who think gay relationships are okay reconcile their beliefs with what the bible says?
Those are really good questions. There is a warning in Timothy 4 of a future age when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. That may be today, or it might not, but it warns to be vigilant and sober minded for that day, and your questions seem to suggest you are being vigilant.

One thing we can be certain about is this. If we exchange scripture for our own morality, secretly or overtly, we do wrong and teach wrong. If we truly believe that scripture does not condemn homosexuality based on scripture then we are either correct or mistaken. However, if we reinterpret scripture so that it conforms to our own morality then we have ceased our pursuit of Christ. And what is our own morality that anything should conform to it.
 
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jahel

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Getting back to my original post, that creates this enormous stumbling block for seekers like me. The moral code I'm supposed to adopt seems worse than the one I have. The one I have is based on love, compassion and understanding. The one being offered is based on. . . definitely not those qualities.

If I manage to connect with Jesus (and I am searching) how am I supposed to live with myself if I buy my salvation by throwing others that I love and have compassion for under the bus?
Also I don’t think anyone should be a slave to other’s ideals. But if they adopt those ideas are they not their own? No one should be afraid to own up to their own ideals. But it’s small people that talk about people, medium talk about things, and big people talk about ideals.
Throwing anyone under the bus isn’t in keeping with the topic tho.

To the Op: principles and convictions are the same thing give or take a truth or two. Truth behind convictions is another thing.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Getting back to my original post, that creates this enormous stumbling block for seekers like me. The moral code I'm supposed to adopt seems worse than the one I have. The one I have is based on love, compassion and understanding. The one being offered is based on. . . definitely not those qualities.
Jesus says "Blessed are you who find no stumbling block in ME".
and no worries with the moral things you already have - no matter what they are, for anyone, they all must be renounced, given up, forsaken , repented of... (no longer held ) as "in the flesh" (flesh cannot accomplish getting to heaven).
Jesus is the only way/ gate/ door/ to get to the Father in heaven. No other way.
AFTER being in HIM, HE creates/makes/re-makes/fixes/heals all that is inside/ broken/ wrong/ good/ sinful/ everything. All has to be crucified.
THEN Jesus Way can be Accomplished by the Father in our lives.
 
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com7fy8

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were you challenged by god's moral code in any way...i.e - having to let go of a cherished belief in something like homosexuality not being a sin, abortion being the justified choice of a woman exercising body autonomy etc.?
Did you struggle with that? If so how did you overcome that discomfort?
Well, I was a Roman Catholic; so I did not have any problem accepting that gay stuff and abortion are wrong.

But as a Christian I have struggled with how ones can accuse me of hating people because I do not accept homosexuality and abortion. Since I want to be known to be a loving and caring person, I can struggle with how people threaten to think I hate them.

But I pray for how God will have me doing things and seeing things and feeling, and relating with people.

Jesus has me have compassion on people who are wrong. And do not be afraid of how people can speak evil of me. It seems to be a standard trick, actually, to say people hate someone when we don't go along with how the person is wrong. We see how children and teenagers can scream how their parents hate them, when their parents stand up to their children for their children's own good.

God knows what is right and good; God knows what He has people do, and what His love does not have people do > "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

I have seen how certain people can do what is wrong, and they can claim they are God's children; but do they have the rest for their souls which Jesus guarantees to us who are God's children? So, while I might be concerned by how certain people accuse me of hating them, I am noticing how they are relating and how they appear to be inside themselves.

And I see a connection > weakness for wrong pleasure helps keep any of us weak so we can keep on suffering pain. So, preference for pleasure and living selfishly does not work.
 
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PloverWing

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To be more specific were you challenged by god's moral code in any way...i.e - having to let go of a cherished belief in something like homosexuality not being a sin, abortion being the justified choice of a woman exercising body autonomy etc.?
Did you struggle with that? If so how did you overcome that discomfort?

I grew up in the Christian faith, so my story is going to be different from that of an adult convert. But I will say that studying the Scriptures and reading to the words of some wise Christian theologians led me to change some of the cultural beliefs that I grew up with. Most notably: 1) I came to believe that Jesus calls us to love and forgive our enemies, in the sense of working for the well-being of those around us even if they hurt us, and to respond to violence in nonviolent ways. 2) I came to believe that it is very important to care for the poor. 3) I came to believe that it is similarly important to welcome and care for people who are marginalized or excluded by society.

In these areas of growth, I wasn't so much letting go of cherished beliefs as letting go of cultural assumptions. I grew up in a Navy family in a Navy town, so Jesus' words about nonviolence were initially disturbing. And it's a common but unfortunate human instinct to look down on people who aren't like me, and I have realized over time that I need to step away from that instinct.
 
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Paidiske

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If anything, I think my experience has been kind of the opposite of what you suppose it might have been, OP.

When, as a young adult, I began going to church, began exploring Christianity, I'd been raised with a very, very rigid, narrow worldview. I was very clear on what was right and acceptable and what was not, (and most things were not). And I was perfectly ready to regard not just actions but people as basically corrupt and worthless.

For me, my growth as a Christian has been, in large part, about relinquishing that rigidity and narrowness and realising that God is bigger and far more compassionate than I was as a know-it-all teenager.
 
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Tolworth John

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scripture is fairly clear on the subject that gay people are wrong just for loving someone and that is anathema to me.

No homosexuals are not wrong/sinful just for loving someone.
They are wrong/sinful for rejecting Gods laws, love and way of life.

If anything it is not that they love a person, but that they don't love God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No homosexuals are not wrong/sinful just for loving someone.
They are wrong/sinful for rejecting Gods laws, love and way of life.

If anything it is not that they love a person, but that they don't love God.
And as written, bad company corrupts good morals. The perverted love of anyone separated from God and opposed to Him, hurts , harms and leads to destruction those they 'love' as they call love - it is not God's Love as it is not from Him, and not His Way, but is fleshly, carnal, transgressions (sin).
 
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Josheb

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...I have always and, I hope, always will support gay people in their struggle against persecution, bigotry and hatred...
Great. Now that we understand your position a little better let me ask why this is relevant. Is it imagined God's moral code persecutes homosexuals or contains bigotry and hatred toward those who practice homosexuality? Is it being suggested conversion to Christianity might foster the three in whole or part?
 
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Doubting Brutus

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Great. Now that we understand your position a little better let me ask why this is relevant. Is it imagined God's moral code persecutes homosexuals or contains bigotry and hatred toward those who practice homosexuality? Is it being suggested conversion to Christianity might foster the three in whole or part?

Well, if I'm understanding some of the responses I've had then, yes.

If telling someone that their consenting, loving relationship is an abomination isn't bigotry then I don't know what is. I know a gentleman that is Gay. He is a lovely man. He is married to a man and they have two children together. They are a wonderful people, are very much in love and are great parents. I cannot in good conscience imagine telling them that their union, indeed, their family is morally wrong and in need of disintegration. I also cannot fathom how what they have is in any way undesirable or sinful. Yes, it is said in Leviticus and other places that man must not lay with man yadda yadda yadda but I can't see a way around that not being hideously wrong. So, if my spiritual journey brings me to Christ then, where do I go? What do I do? The thread was asking how others have grappled with this.
 
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PloverWing

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If anything it is not that they love a person, but that they don't love God.

This goes a step too far. It's reasonable to say that, according to your best understanding of the Bible, same-sex intimacy is a sin. But it is inaccurate and discourteous to say that gay Christians do not love God. The partnered gay Christians that I've met do indeed love God; they just disagree with you on some ethical and theological questions.
 
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