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Depends what you mean by 3rd day since. If something happened today, it is zero days since, it is the same day, no days have passed since it happened.
If something happened yesteday, it is one day since it happened.
If something happened the day before yesterday, it is 2 days since it happened.
So, if it is Sunday, and something happened last Thursday, it would be the 3rd day since.
Thursday-Same day. Zero days since.
Friday-Day after. One day since.
Shabbat-2 days since.
Sunday-3 days since.
You said "erev Shabbat" but I think you meant before Shabbat. Erev Shabbat is part of Shabbat and Yeshua was crucified before Erev Shabbat.
Matthew 26 placing His capture on the morning of the 15th
Shalom
Lol! You seem to have clearly ignored post # 38 where I already laid out the count for all four doctrines concerning the burial and resurrection of Yeshua. So, I have reposted it below:Let's put the Enoch calendar aside a moment. Good idea starting a thread on it Hark.
As Visionary pointed out, Yeshua rose before sunrise on the 1st day of the week.
In my opinion, this was also the Day of Firstfruits of the barley offering. It was from this day that the omer count began.
To get the required 3 days and 3 nights, Yeshua was crucified on Thursday. This means Thursday was the 14th. Friday was the 15th. Shabbat was the 16. Sunday was the 17th. And Sunday was Firstfruits. The day Yeshua rose.
The women had purchased spices and ointments for Yeshua's body, but had no time to prepare His body for burial. The 1st Day of Matsa arrived at sunset after Yeshua was placed in the tomb. The women rested for 2 days. 1st Day of Matsa. And then Shabbat.
Then, before sunrise, they went to finish preparing the body of Christ. But when they arrived, the stone was already rolled away. Yeshua had already risen. How much sooner, I don't know. But from putting the pieces together, it looks to me like He rose just before sunrise.
Putting the crucifixion on Tuesday means the women rested but one day, Wednesday. And they would have returned to the tomb on Thursday. This does not give the required 3 days and 3 nights, and is essentially the same counting problem as a Friday crucifixion. You only get 2 days and 2 nights at the most. If Yeshua stayed in the tomb past Thursday morning, He would have still been in the tomb when the women returned after the Sabbath, if the Sabbath was Matsa 1.
Here is the Tuesday version from what I understand: (Feel free to clarify your view, HP)
As we can see, it doesn't add to 3 days and 3 nights. If Yeshua stayed in the tomb a day longer, until Friday, the women would be arriving at the tomb on a day that was not after a Sabbath, as Visionary quoted.
- Day 1-Tuesday afternoon. Yeshua placed in tomb
- Night 1-Matsa begins.
- Day 2-Wednesday. Shabbat for Matsa
- Night 2-Matsa ended.
- Day 3-Thursday. Yeshua had already risen when the women went to the tomb before sunrise after the Sabbath of Matsa. The day portion is not counted.
Putting the crucifixion on Tuesday also means Yeshua did not rise on Sunday. This does not agree with the verses of the women going to the tomb on Sunday.
Now let's consider a Friday crucifixion:
So with a Friday crucifixion, we don't get 3 days and 3 nights, but we do get a Sunday resurrection, and we do get the women going to the tomb on a Sunday, after the Sabbath.
- Day 1-Friday afternoon. Yeshua placed in tomb.
- Night 1-Starts Friday at sunset. Weekly Shabbat began.
- Day 2-Weekly Shabbat ended Saturday at sunset.
- Night 2-Sunday began at sunset.
- Day 3-Yeshua was already risen, so the day portion of Sunday is not counted.
Now let's consider a Thursday crucifixion:
This seems to me the best timeline for the crucifixion.
- Day 1-Thursday. Yeshua placed in tomb.
- Night 1-Began Thursday at sunset. 1st Day of Matsa. Day of rest.
- Day 2-Friday. Matsa 1 lasted until sunset.
- Night 2-Began Friday at sunset. Weekly Sabbath.
- Day 3-Saturday. Weekly Sabbath lasted until sunset.
- Night 3-Sunday began at sunset.
- Day 4-Sunday morning. Yeshua had already risen, so the day portion of Sunday is not counted.
Lol! You seem to have clearly ignored post # 38 where I already laid out the count for all four doctrines concerning the burial and resurrection of Yeshua. So, I have reposted it below:
There are some key words we miss from our Lord, and these words help us prove that He didn't count the first day He was buried:
“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”
Matthew 20:18-19 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)
"He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”
Luke 24:6-7 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)
"But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened."
Luke 24:21 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)
"and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’ Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.”
Matthew 27:63-64 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)
Notice the emphasis on everything being accomplished on the 3rd Day, the opponents and disciples of Christ clearly understood the true meaning of our Lord's words and how the count was to go for the days. I will deomnstrate that according to this understnading that Yeshua didn't count the first day He was buried as it was towards the evening, therefore the only logical conclusion would be that He counted the morning and noon periods as "1 Day"...and really when you ponder this it makes sense as God begins the day in the morning when He said, "Let there be light." so it would only be logical that this same method of counting was being used. This means we have four competing burial doctrines:
Not my job to tell anyone what to believe but...the evidence speaks for itself...
Have you considered that you, and everyone else, were invited to this discussion not to subjectively look at the biblical texts and events surrounding the events of Yeshua's burial and resurrection...but instead we were all invited to discuss things objectively?I'm sorry but that is no evidence at all. When you use inclusive counting (which is biblical) 3 days is 3 days. The 3rd day was Sunday, the 2nd day was the Sabbath and the day those things happened was on Friday.
What do we learn in geometry about triangles?Since it seems the issue of calendars is being avoided and danced around I have gone through the trouble of laying out the 1st Month of Abib with the 1st Day of the month landing on one of the 7 Days of the Week:
Sunday Start
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
08 09 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30_______________
Monday Start
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
___01 02 03 04 05 06
07 08 09 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30____________
Tuesday Start
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
______01 02 03 04 05
06 07 08 09 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30_________
Wednesday Start (Tuesday Burial Doctrine)
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_________01 02 03 04
05 06 07 08 09 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30______
Thursday Start (Wednesday Burial Doctrine)
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
____________01 02 03
04 05 06 07 08 09 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30___
Friday Start (Thursday Burial Doctrine)
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
_______________01 02
03 04 05 06 07 08 09
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Saturday Start (Friday Burial Doctrine)
1st Month of Abib
01 02 03 04 05 06 07
__________________01
02 03 04 05 06 07 08
09 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30__________________
It's clear from the above layouts that Friday Burial Doctrines by default must choose Saturday Start to remain consistent with their doctrine; and, in like fashion Thursday Burial Doctrines must choose Friday Start by default; and, finally Wednesday Burial Doctrines must choose Thursday Start. The main question arises? What day did YHWH create the luminaries? Once this question is answered it is clear that the only calendar which follows the biblical account of creation is the Tuesday Burial Doctrine with a Wednesday Start. The other start dates are clearly shown to be false and need no attention pad to them.
With that out of the way we must now ask ourselves what do the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with? Wednesday Start. This will automatically force you to reconsider why the texts read in conflict with what the truth is? Answer is in post #140 where I demonstrate textual corruption.
Please read my answers in post #147 and post #148. What we've been arguing up to this point are minor details. I have laid out all seven possible days any doctrine can begine the 1st Day of the 1st Month...regardless of whatever calendar system or mode of counting you use.Shabbat Abib 1
Exodus 4:29 - 5:5 KJV
29 And Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the children of Israel:
30 And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.
31 And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.
01 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
02 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
03 And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.
04 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
05 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
And by my reading of the text there are fourteen days, (inclusive), from this Shabbat to the Passover in Exodus 12. This day is therefore, at least in my reckoning of the text, not only a Shabbat but also Rosh Hodesh and therefore Abib 1.
Moreover the tenth of the seventh month is a Shabbat shabbaton and this phrase means, according to its usage in the Torah, that the tenth of the seventh month, Yom haKippurim, is to always be a weekly Shabbat, which is the only other moed called a Shabbat shabbaton.
It isn't possible to keep the tenth of the seventh month in the position of a weekly Shabbat shabbaton on a lunar or a lunisolar calendar.
Okay so you're holding a grudge...didn't know that's how we reach the truth?Sorry for your luck.
Introduction to Enoch's Intercalary Lunar Months
Okay so you're holding a grudge...didn't know that's how we reach the truth?
The Old Testament was based on a lunar calendar. The NEW MOON began each month in the Hebrew calendar.Thanks again HARK! I'm glad to contribute my knowledge on this subject. Right off the bat I can tell he's close but still off the mark.
What Calendar System Does the Bible Use?
It must be rightly understood that none of our man-made calendars are useful past the date of their creation: therefore the Gregorian Calendar is unusable for all dates before 1582 AD; and in like manner the Julian Calendar is unusable for all dates before -45 BC; the same can be applied for the modern Hebrew/Jewish Calendar.
That said we must seriously ask ourselves, what calendar system is actually being presented in the Bible? An objective view would show that it is a solar calendar which begins in the spring and consists of a base year of 360 Days with 4 Intercalary Days inserted at the head of each season/quarter. We know it cannot be lunar or astral as God began His work in the light of Day and not the darkness of Night, and all forms of lunar calendars are well known to not keep the year reliably. With that said people can use any type of calendar converter they want, and they will always get the "correct date" according to that calendar system, but when placed against the Law and the Prophets they fall short.
When was Yeshua Born?
This brings us to our dating system which is heavily misunderstood and leads people to have dates all over the place, especially as it regards the death of Yeshua. Setting aside arguments for the true date of creation I have found that whether one uses the Septuagint, Masoretic Text, or rabbinic date for creation: Yeshua cannot be born on any date before 0 BC/1 AD, nor can He die at any date after 30 AD. This is because common sense would dictate that all dates from -1 BC and earlier tell us how many years there will be before Yeshua is born, really this is like counting down from 10 Seconds to 0 Seconds. Why people continue to throw out common sense when counting down the years leading to Yeshua's birth is puzzling to me. Ancient historians tell us that Yeshua was born in the 42nd Year of Augustus Caesar which corresponds to the 33rd Year of Herod the Great in the 2nd Year of the 195th Olympiad, this is 42 Years after Augustus came into power in the 184th Olympiad.
When did Yeshua Die?
As to His death this is easy to verify when we look at the reigns reported by ancient historians who tell us that Yeshua died in the 202nd Olympiad. Sadly these ancient dating systems are largely overlooked by many scholars and believers because we wrongly believe that everyone just used the Anno Domini system, but this is far from the truth for it wasn't created until 525 AD: which is 525 Years after Christ was born. So, to figure out the age Christ died we must simply calculate the years in between the date of His birth and death:
42nd Year of Augustus to Christ's Death
202 Olympiads
194.5 Olympiads
7.5 Olympiads
7.5 Olympiads × 4 Years = 30 Years
...and to be absolutely sure these numbers are correct we must know the number of years which Augustus and Tiberius reigned...
1st Year of Augustus to 15th Year of Tiberius
202 Olympiads
184 Olympiads
18 Olympiads
18 Olympiads × 4 Years = 72 Years
While the historical records differ slightly by a few months to a year on the total length of Augustus' reign: they all agree on which Olympiad he came into power and, the Olympiad in which Christ died during the reign of Tiberius. These numbers tell us that Augustus Caesar ruled for 57 Years, and that Christ died in His 30th Year in the 15th Year of Tiberius. This aligns perfectly with what we read in Luke 2 & 3 and Matthew 2.
Conclusion
After aligning the biblical narrative and chronology with ancient historical sources it is clear that Yeshua died at 30 Years old in the spring during the 15th Year of Tiberius Caesar at the close of the 202nd Olympiad. This corresponds to our Anno Domini year 30 AD.
Hey brother @HARK! I know that the aim of this thread is an objective look at the topic you raised in your OP. It's clear there's been a struggle and everyone is very passionate and wanting to serve YHWH correctly and get at the truth of the matter.
I believe my answers in post #147 and #148 are the most objective I could find to be, maybe you or others can come up with something better? But otherwise those posts are the best way I could come up with to be fair across the board to all views and calendar systems.
Not sure what everyone else thinks about those posts I cited but, it's undeniable to me at least that out of all those options only one fits Scripture and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Old Testament was based on a lunar calendar. The NEW MOON began each month in the Jewish calendar.
I'm not looking for a fast easy answer. I've been looking at this subject for many years; and between mistranslations, manuscript variants, changing calendars, different canons, evolving languages, and more, I've realized that getting to the bottom of all of this will be no easy task.
Do you want to talk about that literally or allegorically? I stopped responding to you on my thread because you began to allegorize the Scriptures when you couldn't come up with a sensible literal answer to a literal problem I was addressing. This thread is talking about literally figuring out the exact literal day and time in which Yeshua died.It isn't about a grudge, this is a discussion board: why should I or anyone else be compelled to pay any attention to mockers and scoffers?
I noticed you had nothing to say about what I actually posted, though you responded and directed me to read your own posts: do you have nothing to say about what I posted? Does your calendar observe Yom haKippurim as a Shabbat shabbaton? Did you look into what I said about the Shabbat shabbaton always being a weekly Shabbat?
No problem brother! Thanks for considering and inviting me to join in your thread. While it's been difficult to sort through manuscripts and the like which you've brought up, I'm a visionary and big picture guy...I know numbers will not lie and will follow the narrative....and when the numbers don't add up that tells me there's something wrong somewhere in the narrative. That's what I illustrated in post #147 and #148.I believe it was you who made a request (yesterday?) that inspired me to put together s comprehensive walkthough of the events leading to his resurrection. I've had a busy day, and I'm not feeling well. (I hope it's not Covid) My mind is in a fog. However, with all that I needed to accomplish today, I've been thinking about that walkthough throughout the day. I figure that I can get started on that; and update it as I acquire more information. I haven't had time to even read through all of this thread; and I plan to read it, and consider what everyone has contributed. I'm not looking for a fast easy answer. I've been looking at this subject for many years; and between mistranslations, manuscript variants, changing calendars, different canons, evolving languages, and more, I've realized that getting to the bottom of all of this will be no easy task.
So far, people are responding to this thread faster than I can keep up with it. Let alone research and process all that is being said. Your posts in particular require a lot of brain power to sort through. All of this is good! For now, I'm going to read through what has been posted, and make mental notes.
Thank you Humble Penny.
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