Did the Virgin Mary...

[Faith In God]

This touches on two important issue. Thank you for bringing this up!

First, Mary is due honor. As the Theotokos, she was honored by Jesus. We are called to follow Jesus. We should also honor (but not idolize, of course) Mary.

He honoured her as His mother. He did not honour her especially as the mother of Him in particular

Second, there are two traditions, those of God, and of man. The scripture you quoted talks about the traditions of man. This scripture talks about the traditions of God (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

As you see, we are in fact called to follow traditions! Not the traditions of men, which are worthless, but the traditions of God passed down by the Church, whether in the epistles (of the New Testament and outside of it) or by word of mouth (unwritten, not in the Bible).

How about what you said about following Jesus' example? [bible]Luke 11:27-28[/bible]I'm going to follow Christ's example, because right now, I don't see how it is God's tradition to esteem Mary as highly as some people esteem her (Christ Himself blessed those who hear and obey rather than His mother. Christ gave Mary no extra honour for being the Lord's servant, as every Christian is.)

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

He honoured her as His mother. He did not honour her especially as the mother of Him in particular


How about what you said about following Jesus' example? Luke 11:27-2827 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. I'm going to follow Christ's example, because right now, I don't see how it is God's tradition to esteem Mary as highly as some people esteem her (Christ Himself blessed those who hear and obey rather than His mother. Christ gave Mary no extra honour for being the Lord's servant, as every Christian is.)

Could you rephrase that? Not sure what you meant to say.

"Yeah rather" can be taken to mean "Yet also." And since we do know that Mary heard the word of God and kept it, He couldn't have been speaking against Mary.

Some people do it too much, but a lot do not do it enough. Read some of the early prayers of the Church. Also, can you provide a verse that says that all believers are to be called blessed by all generations? I only find one for Mary.

 

[Abbadon]

As Joseph didn't toss any DNA in the mix, he isn't Jesus's father. Just a step-father. At that time, it would have been considered unhealthy if Mary and Joseph didn't have children.

Anyone ever see "Dogma"?

 

[PandaBear]

Sorry if I'm behind in the discussion, but I have heard that the word for "brothers/sisters" was also used for "cousin" in those days. I have no idea where I heard that, so, you know, grain of salt and all that.

PB

 

[Blackmarch]

Please don't take offense to this as it is a genuine question and I am not writing this to offend anyone...




I know the Virgin Mary was (at least according to the Bible) a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. How a virgin can have a child aside, did she die a virgin? Becuase, you know, she was married and (hopefully) in love with Joseph, and I'd find it hard to believe they didn't "get it on" at least once.

Only when she gave birth to Jesus.... Wasn't joseph commanded to abstain from his wife while she was with child? But there wasn't anything commanding her to be abstinate after havig Jesus.. and she was married to Joseph. Therre are extra biblical accounts of Jesus having brothers and sisters.

 

[SemStudent08]

Sorry if I'm behind in the discussion, but I have heard that the word for "brothers/sisters" was also used for "cousin" in those days. I have no idea where I heard that, so, you know, grain of salt and all that.

PB

This argument has already been played out. I should know, I was one half of it. If you would like to follow it start here and read through the pages until the end. I'd be more than willing to take it up again, but before I start repeating myself, and wasting post and databse space, check out the arguments made already.

 

[PandaBear]

This argument has already been played out. I should know, I was one half of it. If you would like to follow it start here and read through the pages until the end. I'd be more than willing to take it up again, but before I start repeating myself, and wasting post and databse space, check out the arguments made already.

I agree, that's much better. Thanks for the link.

 

[PandaBear]

Interesting to look at a debate like this...so many different angles...folks from different assumptions (mostly born out of denominational differences or Bible interpretation styles) and backgrounds, that frankly it's a messy discussion! From as far as I got, though, I'm content with the scholarly approach of looking at the Septuagent Greek (yeah, I know it's not called Septuagent Greek!) and how we can't read the gospel-writers' minds...I'm content to say that yep, those could be cousins. I'm okay with that. And it's okay with me if others disagree. I shall venerate the Theotokos either way! It would be good to find out what Orthodoxy teaches on this matter, now that I think of it.

PB (a liberal trying to convert to Orthodoxy!)

 

[Abbadon]

But those brothers and sisters couldn't be counted as cousins unless they were on Mary's side of the family unless Joseph threw some DNA into the genepool. Step-cousins, sure, but not cousins. So that only works if Mary had brothers and sisters herself (are there teachings on that?)

 

[Faith In God]

Could you rephrase that? Not sure what you meant to say.

"Yeah rather" can be taken to mean "Yet also." And since we do know that Mary heard the word of God and kept it, He couldn't have been speaking against Mary.

1st of all, read what exactly Luke said right before Jesus said what we're talking about: "But Jesus said,"; There you go. But getting past that to your point, He didn't have to be talking against Mary. He could very well have been speaking against those who thought that there was something extraordinarily special in Mary of being God's servant. Wasn't Peter and Paul and Silas and Luke etc. all addressed like that? And yet Mary is held higher by the church (pick one).

Some people do it too much, but a lot do not do it enough. Read some of the early prayers of the Church. Also, can you provide a verse that says that all believers are to be called blessed by all generations? I only find one for Mary.

Can you cite why being blessed by all generations means that she was saying that she deserved it? If she was like Peter up on the mount where Christ was transfigured and didn't really know what was being said but was speaking through the Spirit, the prophecy was fulfilled to its fullest, no matter what anyone says. The matter is whether or not it is truly deserved.

However, I can cite verses where (Saint) Paul calls all other believers saints, while churches don't like doing that. And yet the church decides also who are saints. Is this practice biblical? It was done to (Saint?) Mary.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

1st of all, read what exactly Luke said right before Jesus said what we're talking about: "But Jesus said,"; There you go. But getting past that to your point, He didn't have to be talking against Mary. He could very well have been speaking against those who thought that there was something extraordinarily special in Mary of being God's servant. Wasn't Peter and Paul and Silas and Luke etc. all addressed like that? And yet Mary is held higher by the church (pick one).Can you cite why being blessed by all generations means that she was saying that she deserved it? If she was like Peter up on the mount where Christ was transfigured and didn't really know what was being said but was speaking through the Spirit, the prophecy was fulfilled to its fullest, no matter what anyone says. The matter is whether or not it is truly deserved.

However, I can cite verses where (Saint) Paul calls all other believers saints, while churches don't like doing that. And yet the church decides also who are saints. Is this practice biblical? It was done to (Saint?) Mary.

I believe that some people were trying to make Mary into a god, as we can see the apostles and whatnot being thought for gods even in scripture. Maybe this is the case. But Peter and Paul are also great servants of the Church, to be honored too. But I must ask this, does anyone deserve anything? Yet we are given everything.

Everyone is a saint. Yet the title saint is different. Everyone is a priest, yet not the titled priest, or even the same type of priest as Jesus.

 

[Faith In God]

I believe that some people were trying to make Mary into a god, as we can see the apostles and whatnot being thought for gods even in scripture.

And all were rebuked for it. THX for bringing that up. I never had that thought before.

Maybe this is the case.

Maybe

But Peter and Paul are also great servants of the Church, to be honored too. But I must ask this, does anyone deserve anything? Yet we are given everything.

I said that thing about deserving very badly. But what you said gave me a better way to say it. I agree that those people are honorable and are 'deserving' of the honor, though Paul whole-heartedly cast all honor to himself aside. The title of 'Saint', to my knowledge, does just that (what Paul didn't really want. How much I would like to get back to biblical terms and not the modern terms that the church uses. It's so much easier to relate back to the bible that way. ) However, the way that the some churches (big churches, though no names will be used for a CF rule) treat Mary and some of the 'Saints' of the bible is more than honor; it's outright worship.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Did anyone stop to consider that if Mary had choosen not to do God's will, we would not have had a Savior?

So Mary's work as caretaker, Mother, first believer, And filled with Grace, and being Holy didnt matter?

She should have honor as any Saint, for she did God's will without compromise.
She brought all of mankind their Savior, which without her, would not have happened.

Honor as the Mother to Jesus, as Jesus gave her, and honor to her for accepting God's will even with the option to forego such a "role".

WE give all thanks to Christ, but even that would not have been...had His Mother declined.
Thank Jesus, and Thank Him for choosing the Mother He had, Mary.

 

[chilehed]

...However, the way that the some churches (big churches, though no names will be used for a CF rule) treat Mary and some of the 'Saints' of the bible is more than honor; it's outright worship.

I'm sure glad that my church doesn't do that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

NO one from the Catholic Church is told to honor her or any Saint above the Lord, but we speak to her and the Saints for 'requests' to go to Jesus.

After all, we know Jesus choose them ...therefore they are choosen above the rest of mankind. And since they are, we know Jesus will listen to them.

 

[Faith In God]

Did anyone stop to consider that if Mary had choosen not to do God's will, we would not have had a Savior?

God would not have chosen one who wouldn't obey. What if Moses decided to disobey God?

So Mary's work as caretaker, Mother, first believer, And filled with Grace, and being Holy didnt matter?

Of course all those mattered. However, they don't matter more than obeying God's word in other areas. (BTW, She was not the first believer. If anyone was, it was Isaiah).

She should have honor as any Saint, for she did God's will without compromise.
She brought all of mankind their Savior, which without her, would not have happened.

If she was not there, God would have brought Joseph another God-fearing woman, just as if Moses died, God would have raised up another deliverer.

Honor as the Mother to Jesus, as Jesus gave her,

He Honored her as a 'dear woman', not as a theotokos.

and honor to her for accepting God's will even with the option to forego such a "role".

You could say the same of a man named Richard Wurmbrand, or Ray Comfort, or Moses, or Joshua, or an innumerable amount of people who are being persecuted to death today for being Christians.

WE give all thanks to Christ, but even that would not have been...had His Mother declined.
Thank Jesus, and Thank Him for choosing the Mother He had, Mary.

The way you are speaking, you are acting as if the whole of God's will for humanity's salvation hinged on one woman, when it hinged on GOD. If Mary died of pneumonia as a girl, by your reasoning, we would have no Savior.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Anyone ever see "Dogma"?

That does it. I see this movie referred to all the time and I've got to rent it to see for myself what the buzz is all about.

Off to the corner store to get it.

 

[Lithium Hobo]

Jeez, try growing up as Jesus' sibling. Must have been some sibling rivalry there. Try growing up with a brother who's the "savior".

 

[WarriorAngel]

Jeez, try growing up as Jesus' sibling. Must have been some sibling rivalry there. Try growing up with a brother who's the "savior".