Did the Virgin Mary...

[Serapha]

Mary the Virgin was an only child.
.

source please.


~serpaha~

 

[chilehed]

Indulgences and purgatory have never been changed???? What sparked the Reformation then??? In every history I have ever read it was the selling of indulgences, to my knowledge that tradition has been stopped entirely. As for the definition of purgatory read Vatican 1 then 2 and compare them to the teaching on purgatory during the middle ages and then tell me they haven't changed...

The selling of indulgences was not Sacred Tradition, it was an abuse on the part of individual priests and was never sanctioned by the Church. As for purgatory, I'm not aware of any contradiction between the understanding of the middle ages and the understanding now. So, I'm telling you that they haven't changed.

As for the canon it is based on the earliest writings we have (ie Ignatius' letters in the 2nd century CE ~11CE actually) and quotations of Scripture therein as a basis for knowing what Scripture can be pin-pointed and then we copare writing styles to establish authorship and then compare the messages comtained in the Scripture in order to check them against one another. Saying that it is based entirely upon traditin is almost a slap in the face of Church Historians throughout history who have pain-stakingly gone through this process in order to represent the most accurate Scripture that can be represented....

That's not how the canon was established. But it's refreshing to see you admit that the canon is not given in scripture, which shows the fallacy of sola scriptura.

 

[Serapha]

They were from Joseph's previous marriage, older step-brothers of Jesus.

Source, please.


~serapha~

 

[Serapha]

Holy Tradition. Same place we get the Bible

And so.... since it is Holy Tradition...


then God said it??? where? source please that God said the tradition of "ever virgin" was inspired of God.


~serapha~

 

[12volt_man]

Holy Tradition. Same place we get the Bible

Two problems with this, one historical, one logical.

The first problem is that we don't get the Bible from subjective traditions. We have enough of the original manuscripts to know where the Bible comes from.

The second problem, the logical problem, is that, if the Bible and tradition both came from the same source, it would make sense that they would have the same message.

Clearly, Roman Catholic tradition and the Bible are at odds on many key points.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

And so.... since it is Holy Tradition...


then God said it??? where? source please that God said the tradition of "ever virgin" was inspired of God.


~serapha~

The Church. The same place where you get the Bible. Both inspired by God, both delivered by men. Believe me when I say NOTHING is taken lightly in Eastern Orthodoxy. Any doctrines that we universally accept, we literally must first universally accept (that means all congregations). The doctrine of the perpetual virginity was said to be taught by the apostles, and it was indeed confirmed that they said this by the entire Church. This is God at work through man.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Two problems with this, one historical, one logical.

The first problem is that we don't get the Bible from subjective traditions. We have enough of the original manuscripts to know where the Bible comes from.

The second problem, the logical problem, is that, if the Bible and tradition both came from the same source, it would make sense that they would have the same message.

Clearly, Roman Catholic tradition and the Bible are at odds on many key points.

We have enough historical manuscripts to know where the Gospel of Thomas comes from, the Book of Enoch. I also have a magazine next to me. I know where that came from. I hold an original manuscript of it in my hand. But that doesn't make it scripture.

And they do in Orthodoxy: Love. Love of God, love of one's neighbor. Everything hinges on these: the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy.

I am not Roman Catholic, though they are not necessarily wrong. They simply interpret different scriptures differently, as we all seem to do...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Source of the Virgin being an only child?..again, as I said, the life of St Anne her mother has been recorded.
She was barren until old age, and promised to give her child to God since she knew in old age she conceived by His hand.

DO you read anywhere about Mary's life in the Bible? NO, but she did live...so how does one know her life outside the Bible?

Tradition has kept all things intact.

Besides, I have to tell you honestly that before 1500 plus years, the Bible was kept only in the Church.
Because in order to read a Bible one had to go to church to see it or read it.
When the printing press became available, it was then that ppl could have their own bibles at home, which left open for interpretations. And errors can occur when men try to discern many things in their own opinions. For the language itself has changed, and so we must rely on Tradition...that which has not been changed by interpretations.

ALSO...Luther broke off in 1534? His doctrine he even said he hoped God would accept.
He added the 'By faith alone' passage to the bible as well.

AND to address the selling of indulgences. This is not the actual case.
IN fact when indulgences occured, it was part of a person's penance to give money to the poor.
The money went to feed the poor. When someone made a confession, they both prayed and gave to charity.
The 'indulgences' for souls in purgatory didn't exist.

However, purgatory does.
Another debate.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

When the printing press became available, it was then that ppl could have their own bibles at home, which left open for interpretations. And errors can occur when men try to discern many things in their own opinions.

Indeed. For every person on the earth, there is an interpretation of scripture. That leaves us with over 6 billion possible mistakes. Good thing we have Holy Tradition and don't have to personally sort through billions of interpretations and hope for the best

 

[WarriorAngel]

Indeed. For every person on the earth, there is an interpretation of scripture. That leaves us with over 6 billion possible mistakes. Good thing we have Holy Tradition and don't have to personally sort through billions of interpretations and hope for the best

Thank you...that is very true, for anyone now can pick a copy up and determine its meaning. WE know not all ppl think alike...indeed this is how things have changed so many to different creeds of Christianity. I do not say they are bad ppl...but this is a typical occurence when men try to discern something. Especially by the words in the bible alone. And 2000 years later. IT is a difficult task.
The fact that we need to understand the Jewish culture to understand it...is actually a very BIG thing. Not to be made light of either.

If I may add something about the terms....such as brethren, brothers...etc.

St Mark 9, 1
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James and John, and led them up a high mountain off by themselves, and was transfigured before them.

St Matthew 17, 1
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James and his brother John, and led them up to a high mountain by themselves.

St Matthew 4, 18-21
AS He was walking by the sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea (For they are fishermen).
And He said to them "Come follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." And at once they left the nets, and followed Him. And going further on, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, in a boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called to them.....

St Matthew 13, 46-50
While He was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brethren were standing outside, seeking to speak to him. And someone said to him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren are standing outside, seeking thee." But he answered, and said to him who told him, "Who is my mother and who are my brethren?" And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother, sister and mother."

I wanted to show how Jesus met his followers, how they were called his brethren...and this included the women called his sisters.
But, many say Jesus had no regard for His mother above others. Indeed, the way this is stated can quite definitely mean he was saying, they believe and they are his.
WHO else has a claim they believed in Christ first...none, but His mother.
For she accepted this from God. She helped the Lord to enter earth by her humble acceptance of the Lord's Will.

 

[JustTrustJesus]

Holy Tradition. Same place we get the Bible

Mat 15:1 Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Mat 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mat 15:5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Mat 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Mat 15:7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Mat 15:8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

 

[WarriorAngel]

Mat 15:9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

That says tons. Doctrines of MEN vs Jesus...by what has been taught and kept thru the Apostles.

.
And if the Apostles started this 'Tradition' by scripture, saying to keep both oral and written scripture, then it is called tradition to uphold the oral.
AS it is also tradition to uphold the scripture. Hence not to change it. Scripture vs values of men..

Mat 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mat 15:5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Mat 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

The moral of the story...they break the laws by God but worry about the insignificant traditions such as washing hands and feet before eating bread...

 

[chilehed]

And so.... since it is Holy Tradition...

then God said it??? where? source please that God said the tradition of "ever virgin" was inspired of God.
~serapha~

Jesus gave the authority to teach in His name to the Aposostles (Matthew 10:20; Luke 10:1; Luke 10:16), with Peter having the preeminent position among them (Matthew 16:17-19), and promised that the Holy Spirit would protect them from ever teaching error (John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:13; 17:17-19; Luke 21:33). Jesus further promised that the fruit that the Apostles bore (i.e., the Bishops they appointed and the Church that He built on them(Ephesians 2:19-22)) would remain faithful (John 15:16). The Apostles in turn taught (again, without error) that they had the authority to pass that office on to their successors. Based on the word of Christ, we can know that the Bishops of the Catholic Church, in union with the sucessor to St. Peter, are protected by God from ever teaching false doctrine as being infallibly true and binding on all believers.

The structure is:

1. The historical evidence shows that Jesus said the Apostles had the authority to teach in his name, and that they would teach binding and infallible doctrine.

2. The historical evidence shows that the Apostles taught that this authority was to be passed on to their successors.

3. The historical evidence shows that their successors taught, as binding doctrine, that the Church is infallible in matters of faith and morals.

4. The historical evidence shows that their successors taught, as binding doctrine, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

Sacred Tradition is not "traditions of men", it's part of the deposit of faith given by Jesus to the Church and is thus both infallible and unchangeable (which is not to say that our understanding of it can't develop). It's true because JESUS SAID SO.

 

[WarriorAngel]

 

[TScott]

Source of the Virgin being an only child?..again, as I said, the life of St Anne her mother has been recorded.
She was barren until old age, and promised to give her child to God since she knew in old age she conceived by His hand.

DO you read anywhere about Mary's life in the Bible? NO, but she did live...so how does one know her life outside the Bible?

As I pointed out earlier much of the tradition for the Virgin Mary and the Immaculate Conception comes from the Protoevangelium found Here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

 

[WarriorAngel]

And I James that wrote this history in Jerusalem, a commotion having arisen when Herod died, withdrew myself to the wilderness until the commotion in Jerusalem ceased, glorifying the Lord God, who had given me the gift and the wisdom to write this history. And grace shall be with them that fear our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory to ages of ages. Amen.

Thanks TScott...

St. James the Less

THE IDENTITY OF JAMES​

​

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Mat 15:1 Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Mat 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mat 15:5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Mat 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Mat 15:7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Mat 15:8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

This touches on two important issue. Thank you for bringing this up!

First, Mary is due honor. As the Theotokos, she was honored by Jesus. We are called to follow Jesus. We should also honor (but not idolize, of course) Mary.

Second, there are two traditions, those of God, and of man. The scripture you quoted talks about the traditions of man. This scripture talks about the traditions of God (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

As you see, we are in fact called to follow traditions! Not the traditions of men, which are worthless, but the traditions of God passed down by the Church, whether in the epistles (of the New Testament and outside of it) or by word of mouth (unwritten, not in the Bible).

 

[chilehed]

...First, Mary is due honor. As the Theotokos, she was honored by Jesus. We are called to follow Jesus. We should also honor (but not idolize, of course) Mary.

AMEN, Biz!

Jesus perfectly honored his mother. As his followers, as members of the Body of Christ, His beloved Spouse, we are to imitate him in honering her, who is by this relationship our very own mother. This has been the steadfast teaching of the Church since the beginning.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

As you see, we are in fact called to follow traditions! Not the traditions of men, which are worthless, but the traditions of God passed down by the Church, whether in the epistles (of the New Testament and outside of it) or by word of mouth (unwritten, not in the Bible).

AMEN and AMEN!!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Love the eloquent writing in here.
Love the well versed debates.

This is to all, but I appreciate in keeping with the same line of Tradition too.

 

[Onesimus85]

Though I do not claim to be liberal, I agree with the majority of these posts, I say majority b/c I did not read them all. Mary did have children with Joseph according to scripture. The scripture also is clear that sex is to be enjoyed within a marriage. It is something that is to be enjoyed in love and it brings a husband and wife closer to each other.