Did the Virgin Mary...

[Serapha]

darthvader,

I found the references (at http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary2.php):

• “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23). Did she have children after her death?

Hi there!



But Judaism teaches that Michal was also "Eglah" of 2 Samuel 3:5, and that she had children before that time, and the passage is that there were no children after that day.

Another indication that Mary had no other children is seen at the Crucifixion, where Jesus tells John “See, your Mother” tells Mary “See, your son”, thus giving Mary into the care of John. He would not have had to do this if she had other children, because they would have taken care of her, and indeed if he had done it anyway they would have howled in protest. There’s no record of any such protest, and the common rational that Jesus did it because his alleged siblings were not believers is merely a transparent supposition that is not at all supported by any biblical text.

Indications are not "biblical text" either....

Additionally, one of the messianic prophesies indicates that the Messiah would be an only child: “...they shall look him who they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they shall grieve over him as one grieves over a firstborn.” (Zech. 12:10).

He was the only begotten Son of God... that's biblical.

~serapha~

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I see. So then, how did Mary go back to the beginning of time, even before the beginning of the beginning of time to accomplish this?

If Jesus could not exist without Mary and the Bible tells us that Jesus is the Creator, who created Mary?

It doesn't assert this at all. Jesus was God forever before His incarnation. He did not take on a human nature until His incarnation.

Would you mind showing us where in scripture we see that Mary is the mother of God?

Mary did not go back in time.

Jesus created Mary.

Agreed.

Look at any of the Gospels. Mary was the mother of Jesus, was she not? Jesus is God, is He not? Mary is the mother of God.

 

[12volt_man]

Mary did not go back in time.

Jesus created Mary.

So then, if Jesus created Mary, then He must exist before Mary and He must be God before His incarnation.

How is it, then, that Mary gave birth to Jesus before His incarnation?

Look at any of the Gospels. Mary was the mother of Jesus, was she not? Jesus is God, is He not? Mary is the mother of God.

Jesus has two natures: human and divine.

Mary is the mother of Jesus' incarnate, human nature.

In addition to the lack of scriptural support for the "Mother of God" heresy, I've already demonstrated why it is illogical to say that Mary is the "mother of God".

How could Mary be the mother of God, when God existed before Mary and when you even admit that Jesus created Mary?

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So then, if Jesus created Mary, then He must exist before Mary and He must be God before His incarnation.

How is it, then, that Mary gave birth to Jesus before His incarnation?



Jesus has two natures: human and divine. Mary is the mother of Jesus' incarnate, human nature.

How could Mary be the mother of God, when God existed before Mary and when you even admit that Jesus created Mary?

And Jesus did exist before Mary. He was, is, and always will be God.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. He was incarnate as a fetus before birth, a baby after birth, and then grew up, like a human. I am not understanding your question.

Indeed Jesus had two natures. He was divine before He came out of the womb. Therefore, upon birth, he was both human and divine. Therefore, Mary gave birth to both natures.

Because Jesus came out of the womb of Mary. This is "giving birth."

 

[12volt_man]

And Jesus did exist before Mary. He was, is, and always will be God.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. He was incarnate as a fetus before birth, a baby after birth, and then grew up, like a human. I am not understanding your question.

Indeed Jesus had two natures. He was divine before He came out of the womb. Therefore, upon birth, he was both human and divine.

By your own logic, your heresy is wrong.

If Jesus existed before Mary, then she cannot be the mother of God.

If Jesus created Mary, then she cannot be the mother of God.

You stated earlier that she is the mother of Jesus' divine nature but you've never told us how this can be, when Jesus' divine nature is eternally pre-existant, before Mary existed.

Therefore, Mary gave birth to both natures.

Because Jesus came out of the womb of Mary. This is "giving birth."

The problem is that according to scripture and by your own admission, Jesus was already God, so Mary could not have given birth to God, only Jesus' earthly, incarnate, human nature.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

By your own logic, your heresy is wrong.

If Jesus existed before Mary, then she cannot be the mother of God.

If Jesus created Mary, then she cannot be the mother of God.

You stated earlier that she is the mother of Jesus' divine nature but you've never told us how this can be, when Jesus' divine nature is eternally pre-existant, before Mary existed.

The problem is that according to scripture and by your own admission, Jesus was already God, so Mary could not have given birth to God, only Jesus' earthly, incarnate, human nature.

The Bible says that Jesus existed before creation. Fact. The Bible also says that Mary was the mother of Jesus. Fact. Your arguement is not with me, but with the Biblical text.

Jesus was divine before He came out of the womb. He came out of the womb divine. He was born divine. Mary bore Him.

If that is what you believe, then you are saying Jesus was not divine until after He was born.

 

[12volt_man]

The Bible says that Jesus existed before creation. Fact. The Bible also says that Mary was the mother of Jesus.

Jesus had two natures: human and divine.

Mary was the mother of Jesus' earthly, human incarnation.

If Jesus was already divine, as you now admit, then she could not be the mother of His divine nature.

Your arguement is not with me, but with the Biblical text.

I have no argument with the Biblical text because nowhere in the text does it say what you're claiming.

In fact, I've asked you several times to show me where and you haven't been able to, even though you're the one who insists that this is what the Bible says.

Jesus was divine before He came out of the womb. He came out of the womb divine. He was born divine. Mary bore Him.

If Jesus was divine before His incarnation, then Mary cannot be the mother of His divine nature.

If that is what you believe, then you are saying Jesus was not divine until after He was born.

No, what I'm saying, and what I've made abundantly clear, is that Jesus has two natures: human and divine. Mary cannot be the mother of His divine nature for a couple of reasons.

The first is that Jesus already exsisted as God and, if fact created Mary.

The second is that like cannot repruduce unlike. If Mary is not God, then she cannot produce God.

 

[88Devin07]

Many Christians believe she bore other children AFTER Jesus and some don't...

I believe she did. What is so wrong with Mary not staying a virgin her entire life? It does nothing against scripture.

 

[88Devin07]

Also, I just checked out the word "Brother" in Strong's concordance.

The same word used to describe James and John as brother's is used to describe the 4 "brothers" (though really half-brothers since Greek doesn't have any specific word for half-brother) of Jesus.

Also, we know Mary was married to Joseph, otherwise they wouldn't have named Joseph or referred to him at the same time they referred to Mary. At least in my opinion.

 

[heron]

... Like cannot repruduce unlike.

That was the point. The angel came to her and announced that God would be the father. We are made in his image--that's not like a turtle mating with a camel. (By the way, there are certain unlike animals that can mate.)

"She was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit" Matthew 1:18
"'Look! the virgin is with child and will give birth to a son whom they will call Immanuel, a name which means 'God with us.'" -Matthew 1:23, quoting Isaiah 7:14

Do you believe that Mary knew she was divine her whole life? If so, would her betrothal to Joseph have messed with that at all?

It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. We're asking questions of each other so we can learn from each other--from both directions.

 

[12volt_man]

It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. We're asking questions of each other so we can learn from each other--from both directions.

I believe it matters very much.

If you're going to elevate Mary to goddess status, that says a lot about what you believe about the nature of Christ and what you believe about the nature of Christ determines which Christ you're going to follow.

 

[heron]

Voltman, you will notice from my other posts that I am not elevating Mary to a goddess. I am asking those who consider Mary divine, whether they thought she knew she was divine her whole life---and if so, how did she spend that life? Did others consider her divine? Does anyone have writings of her life? ...Just asking questions.

 

[JustTrustJesus]

Please don't take offense to this as it is a genuine question and I am not writing this to offend anyone...




I know the Virgin Mary was (at least according to the Bible) a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. How a virgin can have a child aside, did she die a virgin? Becuase, you know, she was married and (hopefully) in love with Joseph, and I'd find it hard to believe they didn't "get it on" at least once.

I think speculation has no benefit here. Following are all of the Bible references to Mary or the mother of Jesus (please correct me if I've missed any):

Mat 1:16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

Mat 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,

Mat 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mat 2:11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Mar 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.

Luk 1:27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

Luk 1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

Luk 1:39 Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,

Luk 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord,

Luk 1:56 And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.

Luk 2:5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.

Luk 2:16 So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger.

Luk 2:19 But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart.

Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed--

Joh 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;

Joh 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus *said to Him, "They have no wine."

Act 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

 

[Serapha]

Hello et. al



For the benefit of the poster and seekers reading this forum, let's stop the debate or else move the thread to apologetics.

Both sides can't be right, but the difference is between sola scriptura and the acceptance of traditional teachings.

Many times, I believe that questions are posted on Christian internet forums just to watch the Christian "fight".

~serapha~

 

[republican]

All that I have been taught through the bible and through my parents was. Taht mary begotten jesus and when he was dying she was weeping and jesus looked down at her and asked why are you weeping and told her that he and his father had left behind for her another son and after he passed away she was left with him. And all I have known is that mary gave birth to jesus and was left a son.

 

[heron]

JustTrustJesus,
That was a nice list of scriptures you compiled--it must have taken a while. Welcome to the forum!

Serapha, thanks for being cool headed--I think the question has been answered well from many sides. People have certainly shown thought and logic in this discussion!

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Jesus had two natures: human and divine.

Mary was the mother of Jesus' earthly, human incarnation.

If Jesus was already divine, as you now admit, then she could not be the mother of His divine nature.

The first is that Jesus already exsisted as God and, if fact created Mary.

The second is that like cannot repruduce unlike. If Mary is not God, then she cannot produce God.

It boils down to this: do you believe Jesus was divine before He was born, when He was born, and forever after? If so, you believe Mary was the Mother of God. If you claim she was not, you say that Jesus was not divine when He was born. This is as much as I can break it down for you.

Yes, Jesus sure did create Mary.

The Holy Spirit did impregnate Mary, and Mary did give birth to Jesus.

 

[12volt_man]

It boils down to this: do you believe Jesus was divine before He was born, when He was born, and forever after? If so, you believe Mary was the Mother of God. If you claim she was not, you say that Jesus was not divine when He was born.

Again, the problem is that Jesus had two natures: human and divine.

You have already admitted that Jesus was already divine in nature, as well as Mary's creator. Therefore, she cannot be the mother of His divine nature.

This is as much as I can break it down for you.

I don't think you're in any position to be condescending to anyone.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Again, the problem is that Jesus had two natures: human and divine.

You have already admitted that Jesus was already divine in nature, as well as Mary's creator. Therefore, she cannot be the mother of His divine nature.



I don't think you're in any position to be condescending to anyone.

Yes, he did have two natures. If Mary was not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not divine upon birth.

This is just a faulty dilemma. Jesus was already divine, created Mary, and yet was born of Mary.

I am certainly not trying to be condescending.

 

[12volt_man]

Yes, he did have two natures. If Mary was not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not divine upon birth.

Jesus was already divine and, by your own admission, was the creator of Mary. Therefore, she cannot be the mother of God.

If Mary was the mother of God, who is the father of God?

This is just a faulty dilemma. Jesus was already divine, created Mary, and yet was born of Mary.

If Jesus is already divine at the time of His incarnation and is, by your own admission, then Mary cannot be the mother of His divine nature.