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Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?

Early ECFs better knew the Scriptures than those today do

  • Yes of course they did

  • No of course they didn't

  • Not really sure right now


Results are only viewable after voting.

mmmcounts

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The work of the ECF's was foundational, and we absolutely depend on in in order to have a common understanding of the nature of God and the content of the Bible. For starters.

However- and this is not in any way intended to make light of their work, because it is the foundation we stand on- we have built on their work since then. At different points in the early history of the Church, it was a major struggle just to get the major theologians to agree on the divinity of Christ.

I am in no way saying we are better than them for being able to take that as a given and move on to other things. It is specifically because of them that we are able to do that. And when we do immediately affirm these things as a first step of many more, we are able to move on to a variety of other issues that are less central to the Gospel and to doctrine but still beneficial in the quest to better understand the nature of God, the teaching of Jesus and His followers, and the content of the Bible.

Honestly guys, if the ECF's had set out to impact the rest of Christian history for the better but managed to produce a modern generation of Christians that understand the Bible much less than they did, there must have been some serious screw-ups at both ends. But I don't think that happened. I think they set out to solidify key doctrine for the entirety of Christian history, and that was their life's work- make these things sure and allow future generations to work on other things.

They are the giants that we stand on in order to see far, and between the ECF's and us, there have been quite a few more giants building on the work of the first ones. To suggest that none of the great men from Irenaeus (as an example) down to our modern time managed to fully grasp their understanding of Scripture or add anything of value to that body of teaching- in fact, to suggest that they consistently managed to detract from it and made it worse when they were trying to build on it and make things better- I think that kind of suggestion is overly pessimistic and, quite frankly, not entirely accurate.

I think a great number of Godly men and women have built on the initial work of the ECF's and taken it to places that they would have gone if they had the opportunity, but they simply could not. Why? Because they hadn't played their own role yet. But once they did, no one else had to. For that, I am quite thankful.

It pains me a little to say this, simply because we owe so much of our current position to the work that they did. But we are in a better position to know and understand the Scriptures better than the ECF's. It's because of those men and all the giants of the faith that stand between us and them. God willing (and the creek don't rise), Christians 1,000 years from now will be in a better position to understand the Bible better than us, too.
 
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sunlover1

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The work of the ECF's was foundational, and we absolutely depend on in in order to have a common understanding of the nature of God and the content of the Bible. For starters.

However- and this is not in any way intended to make light of their work, because it is the foundation we stand on- we have built on their work since then. At different points in the early history of the Church, it was a major struggle just to get the major theologians to agree on the divinity of Christ.

I am in no way saying we are better than them for being able to take that as a given and move on to other things. It is specifically because of them that we are able to do that. And when we do immediately affirm these things as a first step of many more, we are able to move on to a variety of other issues that are less central to the Gospel and to doctrine but still beneficial in the quest to better understand the nature of God, the teaching of Jesus and His followers, and the content of the Bible.

Honestly guys, if the ECF's had set out to impact the rest of Christian history for the better but managed to produce a modern generation of Christians that understand the Bible much less than they did, there must have been some serious screw-ups at both ends. But I don't think that happened. I think they set out to solidify key doctrine for the entirety of Christian history, and that was their life's work- make these things sure and allow future generations to work on other things.

They are the giants that we stand on in order to see far, and between the ECF's and us, there have been quite a few more giants building on the work of the first ones. To suggest that none of the great men from Irenaeus (as an example) down to our modern time managed to fully grasp their understanding of Scripture or add anything of value to that body of teaching- in fact, to suggest that they consistently managed to detract from it and made it worse when they were trying to build on it and make things better- I think that kind of suggestion is overly pessimistic and, quite frankly, not entirely accurate.

I think a great number of Godly men and women have built on the initial work of the ECF's and taken it to places that they would have gone if they had the opportunity, but they simply could not. Why? Because they hadn't played their own role yet. But once they did, no one else had to. For that, I am quite thankful.

It pains me a little to say this, simply because we owe so much of our current position to the work that they did. But we are in a better position to know and understand the Scriptures better than the ECF's. It's because of those men and all the giants of the faith that stand between us and them. God willing (and the creek don't rise), Christians 1,000 years from now will be in a better position to understand the Bible better than us, too.
Standing on the shoulders of giants!
:thumbsup:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Standing on the shoulders of giants!
:thumbsup:
I also give a hearty :amen: to that post :thumbsup:
*snip*

......It pains me a little to say this, simply because we owe so much of our current position to the work that they did. But we are in a better position to know and understand the Scriptures better than the ECF's. It's because of those men and all the giants of the faith that stand between us and them. God willing (and the creek don't rise), Christians 1,000 years from now will be in a better position to understand the Bible better than us, too.
 
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Super Kal

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they did have a lot of problems back then, though... however, they defended it with their lives. The problem is, people dont research their history, take advantage of what they have, and take everything at face value and as truth.

there are many lies today within Christianity that the ECFs themselves taught against... the more modern, popular Christianity today has pagan roots that stem from dualism/fatalism to Manichaenism & Gnosticism... the sad thing is, we are actually still dealing with those same problems, except this time, these beliefs have been planted within the church over the course of 1500 years.

This is why the teaching that these people left are so important...
they fought exactly what we're fighting today, except the only difference today is, we no longer know what we're fighting. We don't know because we're ignorant of our own history. If we took the time to meditate on the Scriptures, & let go of all pre-conceived thoughts and ideas, then we can truly understand, what is truth, and what is heresy
 
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sunlover1

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The great difficulty with Tradition is that nobody can really know what it is, because it is not written and, therefore, unverifiable. Thus, our RCC friends can say, in perfect innocence that it is obvious that the Pope is the head of the church because of "Apostolic Succession" which is part of True Christian Tradition. Apart from the Bible, everything else is pretty much up for grabs in Christianity.
I have a thread asking what ST entails...

they did have a lot of problems back then, though... however, they defended it with their lives. The problem is, people dont research their history, take advantage of what they have, and take everything at face value and as truth.
Amen on the history part but I don't understand what you meant about the face value.

I believe that the ECF's did have a much better understanding of the Bible because
they had more of a 'frame of reference' if you will.
We have Scripture on paper. Many of the NT church had Scripture (OT) "in their hearts"
If we had OT "in our hearts" we too would understand NT better.
So not only did they have that going for them but they also
understood the nuances of the language in ways we cannot.

IMO
:wave:
 
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Kaitlin08

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I voted yes. The ECFs were native Greek speakers, and they had a much better grasp of Koine Greek than scholars of the language do today. They also lived closer to Jesus and the New Testament writers in the sense that they had a similar cultural background, which made it easier to understand things in the New Testament that seem terribly distant and obscure to me.
 
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sunlover1

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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say? - Christian Forums
This poster stated that the ECF's knew the scriptures far better than we do today.
So I would like to ask if this is true and if their interpretations of the Scriptures could have been faulty, perhaps because of bad translations or because of some of them not being well versed in the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible to determine correct interpretations.
So the question is, did they or didn't they understand/know the Scriptures as well as later Christians all the way up to today, know/understand the Scriptures.

edit to add: I also put a link to this thread on both the TAW and OBOB board.

The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox - Christian Forums
TAW

One Bread, One Body - Catholic - Christian Forums
OBOB

No, I don't believe that they had anything on us except an understanding
of the culture and language, but what good is all of that anyhow without
wisdom,.. kwim?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I voted yes. The ECFs were native Greek speakers, and they had a much better grasp of Koine Greek than scholars of the language do today. They also lived closer to Jesus and the New Testament writers in the sense that they had a similar cultural background, which made it easier to understand things in the New Testament that seem terribly distant and obscure to me.
Weren't there any that were Latin speakers :confused:
 
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Ortho_Cat

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They understood some things with greater clarity than we could hope for, because they were far, far closer to Christ in time and proximity than we are, 2000 years later. They were taught by people who were taught by the Apostles, who were themselves taught by Christ. Therefore I would maintain that the writings of the Church Fathers are intensely important for us to pay attention to, because they reflect the actual beliefs, teachings, and practices of the earliest Christians. They give us an insight into what life was really like for our Christian ancestors.

Spot on, Gwen. This seems like a no-brainer to me...
 
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Biblicist

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I can't speak for every one of these early churchmen but certainly those who were known as the Latin Fathers would have used Latin as their primary language.
This means that Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose, Jerome, Gregory, Hiliary, Isidore along with Augustine would have written in Latin.

Augustine spoke very little Greek and the reason that he gave for this is that he despised his Greek teacher; when it came to Latin and with the use of rhetoric he was a master.

Clement may have possibly been a Greek speaker but as he resided in Rome he was probably proficient in Latin.
 
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patricius79

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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say? - Christian Forums
This poster stated that the ECF's knew the scriptures far better than we do today.
So I would like to ask if this is true and if their interpretations of the Scriptures could have been faulty, perhaps because of bad translations or because of some of them not being well versed in the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible to determine correct interpretations.
B

the Greek fathers likewise testify to the Catholic interpretation of the N.T. but nobody in the first millenium approximates the overall interpretation of any of the reformed traditions

so in that sense they knew the Scriptures better
 
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WarriorAngel

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We are each individuals, we grow at different rates and in different areas.

We are still human and we will make mistakes but we are promised the Holy Spirit to lead us into the fullness of truth.

NASB
Joh 14:26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.



And yet He shows AND KEPT His history and now that is being debated as a viable piece of interpretation per this very thread.

It does not seem to be following the Holy Spirit where He leads, it seems to be leading the Holy Spirit where one wants to believe.
 
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Root of Jesse

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http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6730673
This poster stated that the ECF's knew the scriptures far better than we do today.
So I would like to ask if this is true and if their interpretations of the Scriptures could have been faulty, perhaps because of bad translations or because of some of them not being well versed in the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible to determine correct interpretations.
So the question is, did they or didn't they understand/know the Scriptures as well as later Christians all the way up to today, know/understand the Scriptures.

edit to add: I also put a link to this thread on both the TAW and OBOB board.

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=145
TAW

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26
OBOB

They knew it better because they got it more directly. They knew their master, who knew their master, who knew the apostles, or Christ Himself.

Scholarship was different then, you pretty much lived and breathed your teacher's words, ate with him, lived with him. Then you could go out on your own, knowing exactly what he taught you.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Greetings Anglian. Always good to hear from you and as always your posts are well thought out and enlightening.
I still remain SOLO SCRIPTURA of course but one of these days I may actually get around to reading the ECFs but right now, I am delving more into the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible.

Do you read novels? Newspapers? Shakespeare? My point is that, just because you read the ECF's doesn't mean you hold them higher than scripture. The Catholic Chruch doesn't do this. In fact, the only Sacred Tradition that's really held as high as Scripture is that of the Apostles, and maybe the next generation. After all, Mark was not an apostle, and yet we have his Gospel...
 
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It is the Early Church Fathers that have convinced me the most that Holy Orthodoxy is pretty much the only viable apostolic Church that is consistent with the deposit of faith and the principles that the Fathers, especially of the apostolic age, gave us as legacy

Scripture alone is folly and was unheard of for 1,500 years of Christendom. The Fathers spoke and understood Greek in the original context and tone, the feel of the times. They understood the ancient mindset and the Hellenistic world we are so far-removed from. I'll take Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp anyday to Luther and Calvin and the boys or popes
 
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WarriorAngel

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You forget the Apostles were ECF's. You also forget the scriptures were the OT only back then.
You might have forgotten that the NT wasnt chosen til later to be called scriptures.

AND it seems the Apostles taught many to lead in their place and werent lax on giving the understanding. Not forgetting also that it took hundreds of years before things changed - drastically - so that we have to look back to how things were practiced to understand Christ - whereas the culture was pretty much the same back during the ecf's so it was a lot easier to understand - that - and the Apostles passed on the teachings.

TO suggest we know them better today - without comprehending the fullness of the culture and practices without the constancy of teaching - seems like a big stretch to me.
 
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Albion

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You forget the Apostles were ECF's.

I don't think that they usually are thought of in that way, but this does identify one problem with the poll--it depends on when the ECF lived. If there is clear testimony from a first century figure it obviously means a lot more than someone writing in the fifth century, but we generally trem them all as ECFs.
 
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IisJustMe

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I don't think that they usually are thought of in that way, but this does identify one problem with the poll--it depends on when the ECF lived. If there is clear testimony from a first century figure it obviously means a lot more than someone writing in the fifth century, but we generally trem them all as ECFs.
My thoughts exactly. Those in the second century and beyond are not "fathers" of the body of Christ. The father is Christ, and His siblings were the apostles. Those who did not personally experience Christ's ministry cannot be labeled a "church father" because they did not know Christ personally in the flesh. You may refer those in the fifth century who began the Catholic movement as fathers of that church, but they are not my father as a Southern Baptist. In that sense, the roots of the Baptist doctrine are actually closer to Christ than the Catholic Church, as the tenets of my faith are salvation by grace alone, believers' baptism as testimony of the inner change, and the Lord's Supper in which we remember the Lord Jesus' sacrifice and look forward to His return. These were the basic tenets taught by the apostles, but I would not dream of being so arrogant as to claim any of the apostles founded the Baptist movement. Yes, our denomination is younger than the Catholic church by some 1,000 years, but that does not make us a "derivative" of the Catholic Church. It makes us fellow believers with the Catholics, and that's all it does.
 
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