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Did the apostles have a problem with the cross symbol?

rooster

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When i was in the army, we had this evil thing called log PT. A piece of log that is the girth of 2 stout man(or maybe30inches thick might be a closer estimate) and about 10 feet long(more like 7 feet) could be carried by two persons over a comfortable distance under the eyes of a big fat sargaent.


But of course the input of a forrester would be much more helpful.
 
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ShirChadash

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rooster said:
But of course the input of a forrester would be much more helpful.
heh heh!


Okay -- he says, supposing it was olive wood, which is fairly heavy and dense, if it's dried well an 8' pole would have been around the weight of 100 lbs. Could have been heavier, could have been lighter as well had the wood been a different type... definitely something that would need to be dragged, depending.

A 4x4"', 10' long pole would easily hold 140+ pounds, and would have weighed a reasonable amount to be dragged, albeit exhaustingly.

About 18 years ago, DH carried 4x4 beams (@ 12-14 ft long) a mile+ back into a remote nature area to build a trail for the county he was working for -- each man carried a beam at a time, over and over. It was hard work and very exhausting, but they got it done.

:)
 
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simchat_torah

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A 4x4"', 10' long pole would easily hold 140+ pounds, and would have weighed a reasonable amount to be dragged, albeit exhaustingly.
A 4x4 would be more than thick enough to support my weight, I weigh 275+. I have carried 4x4's for years with my dad as a carpenter. I have carried them around all day on numerous occasions, 10 foot lengths, 12 foot lengths, 8 foot lengths. Its not that heavy. Granted, I'm a big boy ;) but still, it's not that tough of a task. Since I am a big boy, I can carry multiple 4x4's at once, usually a small number of them on each shoulder.

As far as the railroad poles, and this is just to brag, I've had one on each shoulder before (each of decent length)... hehehe.
 
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Asaph

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Just a thought, but if our Lord had been executed in the twentieth century, would anyone be worried that the dimensions of the Electric Chairs they wore around their necks were just right?

SIGH...nevermind. Now that I think about it, yeah, I can imagine it happening!...:D

Grace, Mercy and great Joy to you today in the Lord, Jesus the Messiah,
Asaph
 
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ShirChadash

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*shrug* It's true -- DH and I lofted our big, full-sized bed when he was in grad school. We built our own loft, using 4x4 posts @6+ ft (I insisted on the 4x4's though he told me 2x4's would have done nicely -- that bed held us, and often two children who clamored to be up on the "big bed") and *I* was able to carry them around fairly easily -- but I wouldn't have been keen on carrying them far!


typos, typos!!! :mad:
 
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ShirChadash

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Zemirah said:
About 18 years ago, DH carried 4x4 beams (@ 12-14 ft long) a mile+ back into a remote nature area to build a trail for the county he was working for -- each man carried a beam at a time, over and over. It was hard work and very exhausting, but they got it done.
I should also mention, he was slight, only about 120 lbs at the time, @ 5'9" tall.
 
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simchat_torah

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The army engineers wants you!

Haha.. you have no idea. Not only am I the size of a small bull, but I scored the highest score possible on the entry exam to the Navy. The kept telling me I could go anywhere and do anything.

But the life of the armed forces is not for me.

I'm too much of a free spirit to have so many rules. ;)
 
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LADY DI

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simchat_torah said:
[/font]
On a final note...Lady Di, might I remind you that non-messianics aren't allowed to debate here? If you want to take it to a formal debate in the IDD section that is quite acceptible. However, in the MJ section, only MJ's are allowed to debate.
Shalom,
yafet
To all at MJ forum,
I deeply apologize for breaking the rules here:(
I honestly did not post to debate, only to give "another veiw" of this issue.
I promise not to debate here in the future.

As to making this a formal debate in the IDD section, I dont think I want to debate this issue any further. You S.T. and I have differences of opinion. I respect your opinion.
Shalom
Di:angel:
 
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simchat_torah

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As to making this a formal debate in the IDD section, I dont think I want to debate this issue any further. You S.T. and I have differences of opinion. I respect your opinion.
Shalom

Di:angel:

This is really why I left the subject alone in the other thread. I merely noticed I was being challenged here as well, otherwise I would have (and probably should have) shut up here too ;)


shalom,
yafet
 
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Higher Truth

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Zemmy:

A 4x4"', 10' long pole would easily hold 140+ pounds, and would have weighed a reasonable amount to be dragged, albeit exhaustingly.

HT:

That would be great if there was a sawmill turning out finished PT 4x4's, but let's keep in mind that this is first century Palestine. Let's look at some historical facts:



Crucifixion Practices

Crucifixion probably first began among the Persians. (34) Alexander the Great introduced the practice to Egypt and Carthage, and the Romans appear to have learned of it from the Carthaginans. (11) Although the Romans did not invent crucifixion, they perfected it as a form of torture and capital punishment that was designed to produce a slow death with maximum pain and suffering. (10,17) It was one of the most disgraceful and cruel methods of execution and usually was reserved only for slaves, foreigners, revolutionaries, and the vilest of criminals. (3,25,28) Roman law usually protected Roman citizens from crucifixion, (5) except perhaps in the case of desertion by soldiers.

In its earliest form in Persia, the victim was either tied to a tree or was tied to or impaled on an upright post, usually to keep the guilty victim's feet from touching holy ground. (3,11,30,34,38). Only later was a true cross used; it was characterized by an upright post (stipes) and a horizontal crossbar (patibulum), and it had several variations (11). Although archaeological and historical evidence strongly indicates that the low Tau cross was preferred by the Romans in Palestine at the time of Christ, (2,7,11) crucifixion practices often varied in a given geographic region and in accordance with the imagination of the executioners, and the Latin cross and other forms also may have been used. (26)

It was customary for the condemned man to carry his own cross from the flogging post to the site of crucifixion outside the city walls. (8,11,30) He was usually naked, unless this was prohibited by local customs. (11) Since the weight of the entire cross was probably well over 300 lb. (136 kg), only the crossbar was carried. (11) The patibulum, weighing 75 to 125 lb. (34 to 57 kg), (11,30) was placed across the nape of the victim's neck and balanced along both shoulders. Usually, the outstretched arms then were tied to the crossbar. (7,11) The processional to the site of crucifixion was led by a complete Roman military guard, headed by a centurion. (3,11) One of the soldiers carried a sign (titulus) on which the condemned man's name and crime were displayed. (3,11) Later, the titulus would be attached to the top of the cross. (11) The Roman guard would not leave the victim until they were sure of his death. (9,11) Outside the city walls was permanently located the heavy upright wooden stipes, on which the patibulum would be secured. In the case of the Tau cross, this was accomplished by means of a mortise and tenon joint, with or without reinforcement by ropes. (10,11,30) To prolong the crucifixion process, a horizontal wooden block or plank, serving as a crude seat (sedile or sedulum), often was attached midway down the stipes. (3,11,16) Only very rarely, and probably later than the time of Christ, was an additional block (suppedaneum) employed for transfixion of the feet. (9,11)


You can find this article, that was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in it's entirety here:

http://www.geocities.com/alokonsen/death4.htm

Click on the pictures to enlarge them and see the size of the crosses. Ironically, this is posted on a catholic site advertising the Passion Movie. Guess no one read the info on how the cross wasn't carried, only the crossbeam. :) You can also find this paper posted on other sites.
 
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ShirChadash

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Higher Truth said:
Zemmy:


That would be great if there was a sawmill turning out finished PT 4x4's, but let's keep in mind that this is first century Palestine. Let's look at some historical facts:
:doh:

I'm sure I expected too much when I hoped you would get the point that a 4x4 beam can hold far more than 140 pounds... and it can also be carried/dragged reasonably. It is certainly no stretch to think that a pole (yes -- that's a tree) at least 4" in diameter and probably a bit more generous, of a wood that is as dense and heavy as olive wood or another similar wood they may have had available, could have been carried/drug by a 140 pound healthy man... and naturally, Yeshua was already worn by beatings, etc, by the time He struggled to carry His. And it most certianly could have supported His weight at anywhere from 8' on up. Please, don't patronize me, and attempt to insinuate that I meant any such stupidity as "well, don'tcha know they hewed them there logs right up into 4x4's for their victims". You know perfectly well (I hope) I never stated nor intended such nonsense. I never for a moment assumed we were talking about anything but ISRAEL (not Palestine, Thank you very much) in Yeshua's day. I don't like to get snitty, but I also do not appreciate being spoken down to -- and while your intent may not have been such, your words left much room for me to see it as such.

Thank you.
 
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Higher Truth

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Palestine (Latin Syria Palestina, Hebrew Palestina [פלשתינ&#1492] or Eretz Yisrael [ארץ־ישראל], Arabic Filasteen [فلسطين]), is a region in the Middle East extending inland from the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea.

This is a common term used among scholars, archaeologists, etc, and most Jews have no problem with the term as evidenced here:

http://www.jhom.com/topics/money/first_century_2.htm
 
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ShirChadash

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I reject the term "Palestine". I know the history of the term BTW, understand fully well that it is accepted and widely used within the "scholarly" world. And, I would just guess that to say most Jews have no problem with it, is a stretch.
 
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simchat_torah

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Since the weight of the entire cross was probably well over 300 lb.


-emphasis mine ;)


While the above article discusses crosses, it completely ignores all other forms of execution stakes, ranging from a single pole, to upside down Y's, to X's. As well, it makes many assumptions (example highlighted: probably). Thus making two grevious mistakes:
1) Assuming it was a cross.
2) too many assumptions


Shalom,
yafet
 
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