Did the apostles have a problem with the cross symbol?

[Higher Truth]

Zemmy:

HT -- you haven't answered my question. How does the shroud of Turin remotely tell you that Yeshua was hung on a cross, not a pole?

HT:

The shroud is a burial cloth from the same period. I do not believe that it is the burial cloth of Yeshua any more than you do. What the paper that I posted was trying to put forth, was to demonstrate the techniques used by the Romans for execution at the time of Messiah. The writers of this paper took into account all relevent historical and forensic evidence available. They used the imprint on the shroud to illustrate the method of fastening one to the cross.If we want to know the application of an instrument of execution, it is usually best to go to those who implemented that device, which was the Romans.You are welcome to believe what ever you want to fulfill your theology Zemmy. I prefer to go with Roman historical information put forth by researchers in a peer reviewed enviroment. If you have any documents of that caliber that you are willing to produce, I will be happy to review them.

 

[Sephania]

You are welcome to believe what ever you want to fulfill your theology Zemmy

Do we need to drop to this level? Let us post according to 1 Thes. 5:11

 

[muffler dragon]

Just wanted to let you know that you have my support Zayit. I have never seen you post anything just to support your own theology.

As far as I'm concerned, this drops the level of respect I have for this poster.

Nathan

 

[ShirChadash]

Zemmy:

You are welcome to believe what ever you want to fulfill your theology Zemmy.

Well -- first of all






*wiping brow* gosh, I'm glad to hear that. I was quite afraid I didn't have your permission to believe whatever I will, seeing as how I need your permission and all.

Secondly -- you haven't the first bit of a clue what I believe about much of anything, nor my criteria for determining what I shall accept and reject, thank you very much. So you can keep your snide comments to yourself.

Thirdly, you have presented nothing... absolutely not one ounce of evidence that it had to have been a crossbeam Yeshua carried and not a pole/pale/stake. What you have done -- is exactly what Yafet has claimed, and your "evidence" and "proofs" have ranged from the weak to the utterly laughable. As re: the shroud ( )Yafet already mentioned to you that the widespread action of crucifying on a Tav-cross didn't begin until at least a century later

While crosses were in use at this time, it was very very limited. Mainly there were two types of execution stakes, one which was an upside down Y, and another was simply a pole. Crosses began to be used widely circa 160 c.e. and later.

and I won't even begin to get into the issue of carbon dating. Oy.

I say again. Show me one ounce of proof anyone has that Yeshua was on a Tav-shaped cross. You can't. Neither can anyone show me any proof that He wasn't. *I* haven't any theology on this one, but you certainly seem to -- and you seem to be willing to hold onto the tiniest shred of "evidence" in the hopes of foisting your view onto me and others here who may disagree with you, or at least (like me) simply take a middle road. Read my posts again HT, *I* am not the one desperately trying to prove my theology correct.

I prefer to go with Roman historical information put forth by researchers in a peer reviewed enviroment. If you have any documents of that caliber that you are willing to produce, I will be happy to review them.

Now that -- that's just funny. You probably don't know why that is funny, but alas...

Lastly, your above post to me is indicative of your attitude, as usual, toward others posting here. So I will, along with others who have done so, bid you au revoir on this thread.

What was the answer again to my question HT -- are you Messianic? You care to answer that one, or are you just into playing "posting" dodgeball?

 

[simchat_torah]

HT -- are you Messianic, by the way? I've always wondered, but forgot to ask before.

Many have asked this question literally dozens of times. HT has only said negative comments concerning MJ'ism and has never once answered this question. I have pointedly asked multiple times, as well have moderators.


It is fruitless to ask.

Yet he makes threads demanding to know who is jewish? lol... oh well.

 

[ShirChadash]

Rofl -- I saw that and almost posted a but I figure I don't need to be getting warnings over this stuff LOL. Of course -- I find it interesting he takes it upon himself to set so many "straight" here if he isn't in fact a Messianic, eh?

OH my, I must neeeeeed a lot of setting straight...

 

[Higher Truth]

Zemmy:


Yafet already mentioned to you that the widespread action of crucifying on a Tav-cross didn't begin untilat least a century later


HT:


He mentioned, but once again did not site any sources


Zemmy:


Show me one ounce of proof anyone has that Yeshua was on a Tav-shaped cross. You can't.




Let’s take a look at the Epistle of Barnabas. We all know that this is not part of the cannon, but early church fathers such as Eusebius and Origen have referenced it. It is dated late first century or so. I have had other discussions on this forum where people cited the writing of Eusebius to prove that there was an “original” Hebrew book of Matthew, and an “original” Hebrew book of Hebrews, so I can not see any problem submitting this as evidence. Here are three different translations:

Barnabas 9:7For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his householdeighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledgegiven unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first,and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I'stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). Andbecause the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also threehundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in theremaining one the cross.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lightfoot.html



9:8 For he saith, And Abraham circumcised out of hishousehold eighteen and three hundred. What, then, wasthe knowledge that was given by this? Learn ye, thathe mentioneth the eighteen first, and then, havingmade an interval, he mentioneth the three hundred. Inthe eighteen, IH, you have Jesus; and because thecross in the letter T was about to convey the grace ofredemption, he mentioneth also the three hundred.Therefore, he showeth Jesus in the two letters, IH,and the cross in the one, T.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-hoole.html



8 For it says, "And Abraham circumcised from his household eighteen men and three hundred." What then was the knowledge that was given to him? Notice that he first mentions the eighteen, and after a pause the three hundred. The eighteen is I (=ten) and H (=8) -- you have Jesus -- and because the cross was destined to have grace in the T he says "and three hundred." So he indicates Jesus in the two letters and the cross in the other.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lake.html



In the above quotes, he clearly defines the execution device as being in the shape of a “T”.





BTW:

The hunting in packs is a getting old. Please support your own arguments with your own proof.

 

[ShirChadash]

*shaking head*

Be well, HT.

 

[iitb]

Okay, it seems that the responses in this thread are starting to turn into personal attacks. Either discuss the issue at hand without attacking each other, or this thread will be closed.

Justin
Senior Moderator

 

[Higher Truth]

Zemmy:

Oh gosh -- yes, and Eusebios and Origen are at the top of my list, for trusted sources.

HT:

Might want to defer to Simchat on that one, because the basis for the "validity" of the HRV translation that he uses comes from the writings of Eusebius.

 

[simchat_torah]

I don't accept the HRV btw.

But it looks like Justin's request isn't being adhered to.

Wanna close it up justin?

 

[iitb]

Wanna close it up justin?

Eh, I think we were posting at the same time. My warning, however, still stands.

 

[ShirChadash]

My apologies for getting a bit snitty myself. I'm having a bit of a rough time of it, right now, in unrelated-to-online things and I'll just smile and say, peace folks.

 

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

I don't accept the HRV btw.

HT:

Okay, sorry. I guess you do not use that translation anymore. At one time you were defending it, you said you had two copies, so I assumed that it was your main translation.

My mistake

 

[simchat_torah]

I still have two copies. I use them to study, but that doesn't mean I accept them. I also have copies of the Koran, the Mormon bible, Catholic translations, etc...

I study many things.

I accept the idea of Aramaic original manuscripts, but not necessarily the HRV. But I do use it as a reference tool.

Nice try at being coy though.

 

[blessed2]

the specific shape of the symbol is vastly less important than the act (Messiah's sacrifice) and it's purpose (redemption of all people, "to the Jew first")

Amen! Just what I was thinking!

I think that the evil one must delight when we get so drawn into nit picking over the gnat that we stop seeing the camel.......or nit picking at the letter and missing the heart.

To always promote the truth, without allowing the feelings get involved as He always did.

He who?
I think "love" is abundantly feeling. A search of scriptures concerning Love, His want of our love, His love for us, love for each other, could be enlightening.
Mercy is an application of love....if G-d gave us what we deserved mankind wouldn't have gotten beyond Eden.


Galatians 5

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law

Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

1 John 4
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Furthermore:

Philippians 2
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Titus 3
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[simchat_torah]

He who?
I think "love" is abundantly feeling.

Love is a choice, not a 'feeling'.

 

[Henaynei]

Love is an act, see 1 cor 13 - everything listed there is an act. WHEN we *choose* how to act, THEN feelings follow.

4 Love is patient and kind, not jealous, not boastful, 5 not proud, rude or selfish, not easily angered, and it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not gloat over other people's sins but takes its delight in the truth. 7 Love always bears up, always trusts, always hopes, always endures.

BeWare - whether with HaShem or our earthly relationships - if the measure of our love is based on whether we have feelings of love the relationship is doomed to an early demise. The adversary has more access to our feelings than any other part of our personhood and is extremely adept at manipulating our feelings.

There are several groups today within the Body of Messiah whose entire relationship with the person and "power" of HaSham is almost entirely based on their feelings - they know when something "is of G-d" because they can "feel it in their spiritman" - they determine what is and is not sin by the indication the "the spirit tells me - I can feel it" and so on.

Yirmeyahu 17: 9"The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it?

 

[Higher Truth]

So one thing that we all can agree on, is that some Jews are offended by the sign of the cross. We also know that this came about by the abuse that was put on the Jews by people calling themselves "Christian", but by their fruit it is obvious that they were not. In Isreal, if there is a procession where someone is carrying a cross, the orthodox Jews will stop their car, and put their head down so that they do not have to look at it. It has been said, that the derogatory name "kike", came from the fact that when Jewish immigrants entered Ellis Island, they could not write in English, so the immigration people told them to sign their name with an "X". Because the X looked too much like a cross, they decided to use a circle instead. The Yiddish word for circle is "keikl". So the Jews became known to the Immigration people as "kiekl men" or "kikes"

 

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:


HT has only said negative comments concerning MJ'ism and has never once answered this question

HT:

For the record, the only criticism that I have made, is of this forums "brand" of MJ, which is mixed up with all sorts of other doctrine such as kabballah etc.