Islam Did Mohammed exist?

[DWA2DAY]

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It has many things that nobody know except for the Creator......... Some future incidents that have happened after Prophet death by years, tens of years, centuries
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Hi Limo
In this post you suggest that Mohamed in the Quran many prophecy regarding the future some centuries ahead of time. Please can you tell me you best three prophecies and to which Sura or Hadith they are connected too.

Regards Doug

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo
I introduce myself to you ask a simple Christian named Doug living in Cape Town South Africa. Would you please explain to me what you mean by Pauline-Christianity, this is a foreign term to me and the first I have come across it before.
Please explain this in terms of the Pauline-Christianity faith statement as you would find with for example with the Roman Catholics, Mormons or Later Day Saints etc.

Regards Doug

Hi Doug,
This term is derived from the character and beleif of El-messiah in Islam and modern scholars studies.
El-messiah was a human prophet among Jews to bring them back to the true belief and Mosa's Law. He's created from a woman with no father. He was abide to the law born and lived as a Jew. All his followers were Jews and praying, living, dying as per the Judaic Laws. El-Messiah and followers were circumcised, praying, putting their head on earth, crying to the Creator, used Jewish temple (they were Jews),,,
These are the true followers of El-Messiah the Judaic human prophet.

Now look to what is called Christinity that is invented by Paul and Paul who decided the Laws, He preached among the gentiles (El-Messiah didn't), He stopped circumspection, stopped Mosa's Law, stopped scarifying in the Holy of Helios, a few other people continued the trip of the new religion by adding Crucifixion, resurrection, Son of God, Trinity, church,,, and they've adapted/changed the books accordingly.
to the level that the Christianity invented by Paul is totally different from El-Messiah teaching and his way of life.
Even till date, If you read the books you'll find some remains of the human/Jewish/Prophet El-Messiah which differ from Pauline-Christ Non-Jewish/Deity/Son of God Jesus-Christ character
If you review history, you'll find the known as Jesus-Christ character now is figured for the first time in Constantine Council 381 .
All sects/churches known now are all branches of Pauline-Christianity except for some Unitarians but unfortunately they're missing the true original books of the true Apostles

I hope I've cleared the meaning of Pauline-Christianity.

 

[victorinus]

I hope I've cleared the meaning of Pauline-Christianity.

that is funny

 

[victorinus]

there is another variant to this
-
did mohammed author the quran?
-and-
"shadow of the sword" by tom holland
-is-
a good read on this

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo
In this post you suggest that Mohamed in the Quran many prophecy regarding the future some centuries ahead of time. Please can you tell me you best three prophecies and to which Sura or Hadith they are connected too.

Regards Doug

There are some prophecies have been fulfilled in the early days of Islam like the followings:

• The triumph of the Byzantines over the Persians : the Persians utterly defeated the Byzantines at 614-615 then Allah said in Surah Al-room (Romans) 30-2 " The Romans have been defeated.
  In the nearer land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious." Heraclius, the Roman Emperor attacked the Persians initially by sea in 622 CE and defeated the Persians
• The Qur’an gave the news of the conquest of Makka two years before. 48:27 "
  Indeed Allah shall fulfil the true vision which He showed to His Messenger (SAW) [i.e. the Prophet SAW saw a dream that he has entered Makkah along with his companions, having their (head) hair shaved and cut short] in very truth. Certainly, you shall enter Al-Masjid-al-Haram; if Allah wills, secure, (some) having your heads shaved, and (some) having your head hair cut short, having no fear. He knew what you knew not, and He granted besides that a near victory."

Then some some have been fulfilled later :

• The Qur’an gave the news that the dead body of Pharaoh (of Passover) would one day be discovered 10:92 "
  So this day We shall deliver your (dead) body (out from the sea) that you may be a sign to those who come after you! And verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs , revelations, etc.)." only in 1960s a french doctor who was responsible about curing of the mummy of a Pharynx king discovered sea shells in his body
• ESTABLISHMENT OF State of ISRAEL: 17:104 "
  And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd "
  
  There are many in Hadeeths I'll share later
  

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Limo

Thank you for your reply. In truth I am somewhat disappointed in your response. At the very least I expected you to have an understanding of the Christian faith been that this is a Christian site. Your response seem to be filled with accusations and prejudice against Christianity rather than an informed and though provoking explanation you have filled your respone with a multitude of accusations that do not fit the response.

Thus due to your lack of any reference I accept your statement the Pauline Christianity is derived from the character and belief of El-messiah (Jesus Christ) in the Islamic faith and modern Islamic scholars and has no basis of faith and or any following from a biblical view point.

Your reference to El-messiah or Jesus Christ as a mere prophet is incorrect from a Christian perspective as well as from a Qur’anic perspective. Yet this is a separate topic from my question. However I am will to debate this with you if you so desire.

Your next paragraph reads:-
“Now look to what is called Christinity that is invented by Paul and Paul who decided the Laws, He preached among the gentiles (El-Messiah didn't), He stopped circumspection, stopped Mosa's Law, stopped scarifying in the Holy of Helios, a few other people continued the trip of the new religion by adding Crucifixion, resurrection, Son of God, Trinity, church,,, and they've adapted/changed the books accordingly.
to the level that the Christianity invented by Paul is totally different from El-Messiah teaching and his way of life.”

This is a ludicrous and idiotic statement and show little if any understanding of the Apostle Paul’s teachings. Again it is un-substantiated and without references and thus is viewed as a simpletons attach on something he knows little about. For example you make reference to Helios - Helios was the personification of the Sun in Greek mythology and you are trying to link this to the teachings of Paul. I suggest you start by reading the book of Acts in the New Testament before responding further.

Your statement “If you review history, you'll find the known as Jesus-Christ character now is figured for the first time in Constantine Council 381 .” Since Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is one with the Father, His character is reference throughout the Torah or as Muslims refer to it as the Taurat, thus you should know better than makong this poor comment.

Your final paragraph reads:-
“All sects/churches known now are all branches of Pauline-Christianity except for some Unitarians but unfortunately they're missing the true original books of the true Apostles”

You have avoided my question by making a blanket statement without any reference to any accepted faith. Please can you give me just one reference to a sects/churches faith statement that says they follow the Pauline Christianity? Please in fairness this is not an unreasonable request, and since you claim all sects and churches now follow this supposed newly invented Pauline Christianity this should not be a hard task. If you cannot that’s also ok with me, but proves the case and authority of the teaching of Paul as referenced in the Quran. I make specific reference to Surah 29:46 And (do) not argue (with the) People of the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."

Regards
Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Limo.
Once again I thank you for your reply.
The first two references made of Surah 30-2 and 48:27 are during the revelation of the Quran and Muhammad's life and since the Quran has not been revealed in a normal chronological fashion no one knows if these were prophecy's or insertions after the fact. Thus one can not accept this a true prophecy. In addition read in the light of the basic traditions of Islam any member of the Waring quardish tribe new at some point in the near future they would take over Mecca.

Your reference to surah 10:92 come directly from the dead sea crossing of the Israelite during the Exodus greatly emblemished as only the Islamic traditions can do. Sea shells found in a mummy, well the with reference to the Islamic Foundation UK it was only salt that was found on this mummy and thus again no substantive proof a Pharaoh been drowned during the Exodus or even if the so called mummy was from the same period in time.
ESTABLISHMENT OF State of ISRAEL: since this is a promise from
God from days of old both in the Old and New testament I fail to see how coping it into the Quran is proof the Mohamed fore told the future.

Since I asked you for your best three examples and you have failed to show through any of the above four that Mohamed could prophecy the future it is reasonable to say that Mohamed did not meet the criteria of been a true prophet.

Regards Doug

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo.
Once again I thank you for your reply.
The first two references made of Surah 30-2 and 48:27 are during the revelation of the Quran and Muhammad's life and since the Quran has not been revealed in a normal chronological fashion no one knows if these were prophecy's or insertions after the fact. Thus one can not accept this a true prophecy. In addition read in the light of the basic traditions of Islam any member of the Waring quardish tribe new at some point in the near future they would take over Mecca.

Agree, it was during Prophet's life and closed at that time

Your reference to surah 10:92 come directly from the dead sea crossing of the Israelite during the Exodus greatly emblemished as only the Islamic traditions can do. Sea shells found in a mummy, well the with reference to the Islamic Foundation UK it was only salt that was found on this mummy and thus again no substantive proof a Pharaoh been drowned during the Exodus or even if the so called mummy was from the same period in time.

Morris Biucalet who is the chief of doctors responsible for curing the mummy has investigated this case from scientific and historical points of views. He has spent about 20 years to investigate the case. He ended up by converting to Islam. You can review Wiki page which include references to his books and researches.
Maurice Bucaille - Wikipedia
He has a terrific book "
The Bible, The Qur'an and Science"
In this book he has compared the verses about creation and compared to modern science to find out which is more credible book
I recommend you read it

ESTABLISHMENT OF State of ISRAEL: since this is a promise from
God from days of old both in the Old and New testament I fail to see how coping it into the Quran is proof the Mohamed fore told the future.

The Quranic verse is not copied from bible, Prophet was illiterate and didn't study any books.
The verse is not taking about a promise but assure that Israelite will be gathered from whole world to come to Palestine.

Since I asked you for your best three examples and you have failed to show through any of the above four that Mohamed could prophecy the future it is reasonable to say that Mohamed did not meet the criteria of been a true prophet.
Regards Doug

It's different perspective Doug, No agreement or not accepted is the correct description of the situation.

 

[Limo]

Hi Doug,
Prophecies from Hadeeth:

• Fighting Mongol : 6 centuries after Prophet "The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots."
• Concur of many cities most famous is Constantine : 7 centuries after Prophet “Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will he be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!”"
• Predicts form of governments till date :This affair began with Prophethood and as a mercy; then it will be mercy and Caliphate; afterwards it will change into a cruel monarchy, and finally into an iniquity and tyranny. He also prophesied: Surely, the Caliphate after me will last thirty years; afterwards it will a cruel monarchy.
• Arabs will complete in building high rise : after prophet by 14 centuries : "The barefooted Bedouins competing in building tall buildings."

and many other prophecies that have been fulfilled
following are some references
Prophecies from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
Regards

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Limo
Thank you for your reply.

Morris Biucalet who is the chief of doctors responsible for curing the mummy has investigated this case from scientific and historical points of views. He has spent about 20 years to investigate the case. He ended up by converting to Islam. You can review Wiki page which include references to his books and researches.
Maurice Bucaille - Wikipedia
He has a terrific book "
The Bible, The Qur'an and Science"
In this book he has compared the verses about creation and compared to modern science to find out which is more credible book
I recommend you read it

This by no means clarifies your statement that sea shells were found in the mummy, while it was reported that only salt was found. Quoting book tiles is also far removed from proof, in much the same manner you do not accept biblical scripture as proof.

 

[DWA2DAY]

The Quranic verse is not copied from bible, Prophet was illiterate and didn't study any books.
The verse is not taking about a promise but assure that Israelite will be gathered from whole world to come to Palestine.

Well I see my poor choice of words has opened the door for your to split hair and not allow common sense to prevail. Thus allow me to rephrase my statement.
"Mohamed through his travailing with his grandfather as a young male learned of certain Jewish stories and promises made to them by God. Years later Mohamed then chose to incorporate these into the Quran. Effectively coping the prophecies of the Bible that in the end times the Jews will be gathered together as a nation.

It's different perspective Doug, No agreement or not accepted is the correct description of the situation.

if you do find proof that Mohamed was a true prophet please let me know.

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Limo
thank you for your reply.

Hi Doug,
Prophecies from Hadeeth:

• Fighting Mongol :..........................................

Prophecies from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

it is my understanding that the Hadeeths were written some 200 years plus after Muhammad's death. I make reference to the third Caliph, Uthman as per the basic traditions of Islam p175 to 179 it is noted here and I paraphrase, that Uthman instructed Zaid ibn Thabit, one of Muhammad's scribs to compile a standard version of the Quran. The caliph then recalled all existing copies of the Quran that were in circulation and burnt them. redistributing the new version as the quran we have today. Dependency's were noted and in short parts of surahs are missing, a some five chapters are void and or lost.
In light of this as a trusted Islamic source, how can we be certain that what if the quran complied shortly after Muhammads death has errors that the Hadeeths are valid and true?

Thus I suggest that the using the Hadeeth as prophecies from Allah through Muhammad are false and un-trust worthy and most defiantly not recited by Muhammad.

Regards Doug

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo
Thank you for your reply.


This by no means clarifies your statement that sea shells were found in the mummy, while it was reported that only salt was found. Quoting book tiles is also far removed from proof, in much the same manner you do not accept biblical scripture as proof.

Hi Doug,
The guy wasn't a Muslim when he discovered that the Pharaoh was drawn in water.
When Pharaoh was drawn in water. it wasn't expected that his body is saved and kept by Pharonic way to keep bodies.
It's said only in Quran that, the Pharaoh's body will be kept and this is the discovery.
If they found shell or salt, it doesn't change the discovery that this Pharaoh was drawn in water.

If the discovery is inconvenient for you, it's normal not to believe it but we do and some non-Muslims do.

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo
thank you for your reply.



it is my understanding that the Hadeeths were written some 200 years plus after Muhammad's death. I make reference to the third Caliph, Uthman as per the basic traditions of Islam p175 to 179 it is noted here and I paraphrase, that Uthman instructed Zaid ibn Thabit, one of Muhammad's scribs to compile a standard version of the Quran. The caliph then recalled all existing copies of the Quran that were in circulation and burnt them. redistributing the new version as the quran we have today. Dependency's were noted and in short parts of surahs are missing, a some five chapters are void and or lost.
In light of this as a trusted Islamic source, how can we be certain that what if the quran complied shortly after Muhammads death has errors that the Hadeeths are valid and true?

Thus I suggest that the using the Hadeeth as prophecies from Allah through Muhammad are false and un-trust worthy and most defiantly not recited by Muhammad.

Regards Doug

Hi Doug,
Unfortunately, all of your understanding is wrong.
Hadeeth was written even in Prophet's life.
There are a few books in the first century.
Even books documented Hadeeth after first century were using a tough criteria to authenticate Hadeeths by studding the person and wards hardy. They've rejected some and authenticated others using a very tough and sophisticated methodologies.

Quran is a different story, Quran was memorized by hundreds and the first copy that has has all Quran was collected in the first year after Prophet's death.
Uthman 14 years after Prophet's death copied the original copy into 6 and distributed to 6 main cities.

Regardless if you believe in Hadeeth or not or believe that it's forged.
These Hadeeths about future were documented in books centuries before the mentioned incidents happened in life

I understand that you're rejecting the facts
Regards

 

[Limo]

Well I see my poor choice of words has opened the door for your to split hair and not allow common sense to prevail. Thus allow me to rephrase my statement.
"Mohamed through his travailing with his grandfather as a young male learned of certain Jewish stories and promises made to them by God. Years later Mohamed then chose to incorporate these into the Quran. Effectively coping the prophecies of the Bible that in the end times the Jews will be gathered together as a nation.

Hi Doug,
Sources for this allegations are needed. When Prophet has traveled ?
From whom he has learnt ?
What he has learnt ?

Nevertheless, I'm not aware about verses in Torah about the gathering of Israelites at the end days

Not only the past but future gathering of Israelis in Palestine at the end days.

if you do find proof that Mohamed was a true prophet please let me know.

Regards Doug

You can create another thread to discuss
Regards

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo

Thank you for your reply. In truth I am somewhat disappointed in your response. At the very least I expected you to have an understanding of the Christian faith been that this is a Christian site. Your response seem to be filled with accusations and prejudice against Christianity rather than an informed and though provoking explanation you have filled your respone with a multitude of accusations that do not fit the response.

I didn't include proofs and evidences as I was answering a question of my thoughts about Pauline-Christinty.
FYI, We've nothing in Islam (Quran and Hadeeth) about Paul. These thoughts are from Western Christian Scholars readings.
You can find some details about what is Pauline-Christinty and why it's called by that name here Pauline Christianity - Wikipedia

Thus due to your lack of any reference I accept your statement the Pauline Christianity is derived from the character and belief of El-messiah (Jesus Christ) in the Islamic faith and modern Islamic scholars and has no basis of faith and or any following from a biblical view point.

I didn't say so. Let me explain.
We believe in one character/person/human prophet like any other prophet his name is El-Messiah Issa Ibn (son) of Mariam. He was Israelite born from a woman without a father. He was their to preach Israelite only and push them to abide to Mosa's Law. He lived until he raised as a Jew (Even Gospels confirms this), was circumcised, prayed as a Jew, scarifies in Holy of Holies (mountain temple not the Greek Pagan Idol), Needed help of the Creator to raise him to heaven alive before Crucifixion or death on the cross.
This is totally different from the invented mythical character Jesus-Christ who is figured by early fathers and made a state of the art god from all known gods at that time.

Your reference to El-messiah or Jesus Christ as a mere prophet is incorrect from a Christian perspective as well as from a Qur’anic perspective. Yet this is a separate topic from my question. However I am will to debate this with you if you so desire.

I know there is full disagreement between Islamic recognition of El-Messiah and the mythic character Jesus-Christ

Your next paragraph reads:-
“Now look to what is called Christinity that is invented by Paul and Paul who decided the Laws, He preached among the gentiles (El-Messiah didn't), He stopped circumspection, stopped Mosa's Law, stopped scarifying in the Holy of Helios, a few other people continued the trip of the new religion by adding Crucifixion, resurrection, Son of God, Trinity, church,,, and they've adapted/changed the books accordingly.
to the level that the Christianity invented by Paul is totally different from El-Messiah teaching and his way of life.”

This is a ludicrous and idiotic statement and show little if any understanding of the Apostle Paul’s teachings. Again it is un-substantiated and without references and thus is viewed as a simpletons attach on something he knows little about. For example you make reference to Helios - Helios was the personification of the Sun in Greek mythology and you are trying to link this to the teachings of Paul. I suggest you start by reading the book of Acts in the New Testament before responding further.

I mean Holy of Holies (mountain temple) not Helios Greek idol.
It's there in Gospel that El-Messiah was circumcised, prayed in mountain temple, scarifies, prayed to the Creator, put his head on earth and cried.
Let me know if you can't find these statements in Gospels.

Your statement “If you review history, you'll find the known as Jesus-Christ character now is figured for the first time in Constantine Council 381 .” Since Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is one with the Father, His character is reference throughout the Torah or as Muslims refer to it as the Taurat, thus you should know better than makong this poor comment.

Absolutly Jesus-Christ charecter as Son of God or God the Son or Trinity is neither in Torah nor in Quran.
Neverthless, it's not explictly said in Gospels except for John 1-1 and even some churches are not accepting this statement and consider it's added later by Trinity beleivers.
These are all

Your final paragraph reads:-
“All sects/churches known now are all branches of Pauline-Christianity except for some Unitarians but unfortunately they're missing the true original books of the true Apostles”

You have avoided my question by making a blanket statement without any reference to any accepted faith. Please can you give me just one reference to a sects/churches faith statement that says they follow the Pauline Christianity?

There is no such refrence. Let me explain, Whenever we say Pauline-Christinty we don't mean that everything has been defined and adapted as per Paul. It's referring to a school of thinking which Paul started it when he stopped circumsation, Mosa's Law, sacrifices in monutain temple....

Please in fairness this is not an unreasonable request, and since you claim all sects and churches now follow this supposed newly invented Pauline Christianity this should not be a hard task. If you cannot that’s also ok with me, but proves the case and authority of the teaching of Paul as referenced in the Quran.

As I said It's school of thinking Paul started it. It end up with a relegion that El-Messiag neither beleive nor practiced it. Just review Jesus-Christ way of life and you'll discover he didn't live same way as Christians do.

I make specific reference to Surah 29:46 And (do) not argue (with the) People of the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."
Regards
Doug

Yes true, we should argue with the best and this is what we're doing now.
One God means the universe is having only one Creator/ Almighty but it doesn't mean we beleive in El-Messiha as member of Trinity.
Regards

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Doug,
The guy wasn't a Muslim when he discovered that the Pharaoh was drawn in water....................

Hi Limo
I thought honestly did not want to do this and though you leave the matter, yet your lies and deceit seem to be endless so let put this matter to rest.

To summaries’ to date you claimed that

1) Surah 10:92 is a fulfilled prophecy by Muhammad that a Pharoh mummy would be found in the sea.

2) This was fulfilled is a discovery of a mummy with sea shells inside the body by
Maurice Bucaille a frech doctor, with a reference to the Wikipedia.

3) You further claim based on this discovery Maurice Bucallia become a Muslim.


Lets look at your evidence:-

1) The mummy in question is Ramesses II. Which was discovered in a Tomb in Egypt not in the sea as Surah 10:92 claims?

2) Historically Ramesses II reigned between 1279 to 1213BC and not 1403BC the accepted biblical time frame for the exodus.

3) No sea shells are mention in the reference give but only salt. At the time a common use for salt was as a disinfectant and since Ramesses mummy was moved three time the presence of salt is expected.

4) Wiki site says Maurice Bucaille interested in Quran. In fact one In 1973, Bucaille was appointed family physician to king Faisal of Saudi Arabia and this would require publicly anoucing the Islamic faith not his investigation of the mummy.


You see Limo one must look at the facts one presents as evidence of truth. Your reference do not meet your claims. It s not inconvenient for me, it a silly discussion because the evidence you present dose not stand up any critical evaluation or reasonable standards.

Thus surah 10:92 says “So this day We shall deliver your (dead) body (out from the sea) that you may be a sign to those who come after you!”

It is not Ramesses II as you claim as it was discovered in a tomb in Egypt. Ref Ramesses II - Wikipedia

Conclusion Muhammad does not meet the requirement to foretell the future as Muslim claim.


Regards Doug.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Doug,
Sources for this allegations are needed. When Prophet has traveled ?
From whom he has learnt ?
What he has learnt ?

Limo I make you a deal, you show one sec or church that follows Pauline Christianity as you claimed and I will give you the referance to Islamic sources that give account of Muhammads early life.

Regards

 

[DWA2DAY]

Yes true, we should argue with the best and this is what we're doing now.
Regards

On you acceptance of this surah why do you claim the Pauls teach as false and all church npw preach a Pauline Christianity with out answering my question, give me one church follows this newlt claimed Pauline Christianity?
Well you can not because no do. Limo it like me try to tell you the Hadeeth is more important than the quran, in fact let do away with the quran and just follow the un reliable hadeeths. Its just pure madness and no muslim would agree, even a Christian Muslim.

Regards Doug