Did Luther overcome?

[sparow]

Did Luther overcome?

I believe Luther broke shackles of the church, but did not overcome, but doctrine wise remained a good Catholic.

If this post seems strange it is because it began as a response on the thread, “Are we still under the old covenant?” Then I decided to start a new thread.

To be called “Israel” means one has overcome. Jacob wrestled with an angel all night, and prevailed, resulting in him being called Israel.

Only half of Issac's descendants are descendants of Jacob and only a quarter of Abraham's descendants are descendants of Jacob.

Jews call the 10 lost tribes gentiles; the Bible, since the split, calls the lost tribes, Israel, and the Jews, the Bible calls Judah. All of Abraham's descendants should be circumcised, even other races who dwell with the descendant of Abraham need to be circumcised.

Circumcision indicates God's ownership of the person; circumcision is a blood covenant.

Circumcision has nothing to do with righteousness, but is a prerequisite for entering into the covenant.

Rom 2:26 when out of context of surrounding verses is unhelpful rhetoric. Who is Paul talking to, if the lost sheep, the circumcision is a perpetual covenant.

The question, “Are we subject to the old covenant today,” is deceptive and could compel a useful answer. The question should read, “Today, are we subject to the covenant as administrated by Moses, or are we subject to the covenant administrated by Jesus Christ?”

The issue is, has the covenant/Law been abrogated, by men, and do Christians continually attempt to justify this false doctrine of men?

Luther broke the hold the Church had on him, but he didn't really break from the Churches false doctrines, that is, the Law/covenant abrogated. Luther engaged in the debate, “salvation by faith verses salvation by works”, a vanity, in the context of the Law being abrogated, and because both faith and works properly defined are required.

 

[Gary K]

Did Luther overcome?

I believe Luther broke shackles of the church, but did not overcome, but doctrine wise remained a good Catholic.

If this post seems strange it is because it began as a response on the thread, “Are we still under the old covenant?” Then I decided to start a new thread.

To be called “Israel” means one has overcome. Jacob wrestled with an angel all night, and prevailed, resulting in him being called Israel.

Only half of Issac's descendants are descendants of Jacob and only a quarter of Abraham's descendants are descendants of Jacob.

Jews call the 10 lost tribes gentiles; the Bible, since the split, calls the lost tribes, Israel, and the Jews, the Bible calls Judah. All of Abraham's descendants should be circumcised, even other races who dwell with the descendant of Abraham need to be circumcised.

Circumcision indicates God's ownership of the person; circumcision is a blood covenant.

Circumcision has nothing to do with righteousness, but is a prerequisite for entering into the covenant.

Rom 2:26 when out of context of surrounding verses is unhelpful rhetoric. Who is Paul talking to, if the lost sheep, the circumcision is a perpetual covenant.

The question, “Are we subject to the old covenant today,” is deceptive and could compel a useful answer. The question should read, “Today, are we subject to the covenant as administrated by Moses, or are we subject to the covenant administrated by Jesus Christ?”

The issue is, has the covenant/Law been abrogated, by men, and do Christians continually attempt to justify this false doctrine of men?

Luther broke the hold the Church had on him, but he didn't really break from the Churches false doctrines, that is, the Law/covenant abrogated. Luther engaged in the debate, “salvation by faith verses salvation by works”, a vanity, in the context of the Law being abrogated, and because both faith and works properly defined are required.

I agree. but you're asking a lot to think that after more than a thousand years of spiritual darkness God would attempt to overcome all error in one fell swoop. Luther was a man of incredible faith and brought out the truth of righteousness by faith which is the basis of Christianity. Before the reformation the church was steeped in paganism.

You might read a book by Alexander Hislop, a Scottish minister, titled The Two Babylons written in the 1800s. In it he traces paganism from Nimrod down through time to the doctrines of the Catholic church..

You can find it on the internet as a free download.

 

[sparow]

I agree. but you're asking a lot to think that after more than a thousand years of spiritual darkness God would attempt to overcome all error in one fell swoop. Luther was a man of incredible faith and brought out the truth of righteousness by faith which is the basis of Christianity. Before the reformation the church was steeped in paganism.

You might read a book by Alexander Hislop, a Scottish minister, titled The Two Babylons written in the 1800s. In it he traces paganism from Nimrod down through time to the doctrines of the Catholic church..

You can find it on the internet as a free download.

Jesus overcame, as an example for us, but God does not overcome error He hasn't made. Jesus will destroy the Beast, but that is prophesy fulfilled. So to is with spiritual darkness; the spirit of anti-Christ, is prophesy fulfilled.

I believe Luther had strong faith, but his faith was in his pagan Church, his complaint was only about corruption practiced by men at the helm.

Righteousness by faith is a false doctrine; righteousness is by covenant, by contract, by allegiance and by participation. Faith is to trust in what God has said; faith in doctrines of men (99% of Christian doctrine) is useless. Paganism is universalism, where all the religions of other nations are mixed together; similar to multiculturalism, where God's work at Babel is reversed; but all this is prophesy and history functioning as planned.

Overcoming is required of the individual; from the messages to the seven churches.

To him that overcometh, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Who overcometh shall in no wise be hurt by the second death.

To him that overcometh, to him I will give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.

And who overcometh, and who keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the potter's vessels are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my father, and I will give him the morning star.

Who overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out o the book of life,and I will confess his name before my father, and before his angels.

Who overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name.

Who overcometh I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my father in his throne.

 

[Leaf473]

“Today, are we subject to the covenant as administrated by Moses, or are we subject to the covenant administrated by Jesus Christ?”

We're subject to the covenant administrated by Jesus Christ. Yes, and amen

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 22:20 - New International Reader's Version

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup. He said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. It is poured out for you.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Jesus overcame, as an example for us, but God does not overcome error He hasn't made. Jesus will destroy the Beast, but that is prophesy fulfilled. So to is with spiritual darkness; the spirit of anti-Christ, is prophesy fulfilled.

I believe Luther had strong faith, but his faith was in his pagan Church, his complaint was only about corruption practiced by men at the helm.

Righteousness by faith is a false doctrine; righteousness is by covenant, by contract, by allegiance and by participation. Faith is to trust in what God has said; faith in doctrines of men (99% of Christian doctrine) is useless. Paganism is universalism, where all the religions of other nations are mixed together; similar to multiculturalism, where God's work at Babel is reversed; but all this is prophesy and history functioning as planned.

Overcoming is required of the individual; from the messages to the seven churches.

To him that overcometh, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Who overcometh shall in no wise be hurt by the second death.

To him that overcometh, to him I will give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.

And who overcometh, and who keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the potter's vessels are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my father, and I will give him the morning star.

Who overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out o the book of life,and I will confess his name before my father, and before his angels.

Who overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name.

Who overcometh I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my father in his throne.

Have you ever read any of Luther's writings?

I agree that we must overcome. The question is how? Sin is within us right down to the level of our DNA as we inherited our sinfulness from Adam and Eve. That means it is impossible for us to overcome sin on our own as there is no way we can change our own DNA.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There just isn't any other way to overcome sin.

 

[sparow]

Have you ever read any of Luther's writings?

I agree that we must overcome. The question is how? Sin is within us right down to the level of our DNA as we inherited our sinfulness from Adam and Eve. That means it is impossible for us to overcome sin on our own as there is no way we can change our own DNA.





There just isn't any other way to overcome sin.

You seem to be at odds with God. Men are not expected to be perfect, unless perfection is defined as repenting when one stumbles. We can look at who is known to be saved; the thief on the cross, the little old lady with the small donation, and the twelve apostles; the woman at the well, a lost sheep, required a new covenant. Salvation is not easy, there is a narrow path we are required to find and few find it. None of those known to be saved were sinless, but they all had something, (an attitude) that the lost do not have.

I have not read Luther, I have heard Luther quoted; Luther cannot improve on the Law, the Prophets and Jesus Christ, but he could mislead.

 

[Gary K]

You seem to be at odds with God. Men are not expected to be perfect, unless perfection is defined as repenting when one stumbles. We can look at who is known to be saved; the thief on the cross, the little old lady with the small donation, and the twelve apostles; the woman at the well, a lost sheep, required a new covenant. Salvation is not easy, there is a narrow path we are required to find and few find it. None of those known to be saved were sinless, but they all had something, (an attitude) that the lost do not have.

I have not read Luther, I have heard Luther quoted; Luther cannot improve on the Law, the Prophets and Jesus Christ, but he could mislead.

Luther taught righteousness by faith just like Paul.

Funny how your first post to me used the word overcome several times in relationship to those who would be saved.

 

[sparow]

Luther taught righteousness by faith just like Paul.

Funny how your first post to me used the word overcome several times in relationship to those who would be saved.

You maybe reading more into my words than I mean to be there. Israel is the name of those saved; Israel means overcome; in the same way their city is the new Jerusalem. Jacob was renamed Israel because he overcame.

I like to toss things around, I learn in the process. Suppose righteous by faith was true and suppose Jesus taught it; it would still only be 0.0001% of all Jesus taught, in the context of "Repent, the kingdom of God is near."

I have learned how to spot doctrines of men or traditions of men, which displace the authority of God. Righteousness by faith is one.

In a nut shell, doctrines of men in place of what God has given, almost exclusively advocate the abrogation of the Law or parts thereof, directly, indirectly and by nuance.

 

[Gary K]

You maybe reading more into my words than I mean to be there. Israel is the name of those saved; Israel means overcome; in the same way their city is the new Jerusalem. Jacob was renamed Israel because he overcame.

I like to toss things around, I learn in the process. Suppose righteous by faith was true and suppose Jesus taught it; it would still only be 0.0001% of all Jesus taught, in the context of "Repent, the kingdom of God is near."

I have learned how to spot doctrines of men or traditions of men, which displace the authority of God. Righteousness by faith is one.

In a nut shell, doctrines of men in place of what God has given, almost exclusively advocate the abrogation of the Law or parts thereof, directly, indirectly and by nuance.

I've never heard of such a theory before. Righteousness by faith is taught throughout the scriptures. Jesus Himself taught it and that's why the Pharisees hated Him. Jesus said He did only those things His Father told Him to do and in so doing never sinned. It's what Revelation means by the phrase, faith of Jesus.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Faith results in obedience, not disobedience.

 

[sparow]

I've never heard of such a theory before. Righteousness by faith is taught throughout the scriptures. Jesus Himself taught it and that's why the Pharisees hated Him. Jesus said He did only those things His Father told Him to do and in so doing never sinned. It's what Revelation means by the phrase, faith of Jesus.



Faith results in obedience, not disobedience.

Mine is not a theory, I do not use scientific method; mine is an interpretation, yours is teaching of men, the purpose of which is to abrogate the law of God, your own interpretation is in the context of the doctrine of men.

Wasn't Jesus's Father the Word of God who made the covenant with Moses, Wasn't Jesus's Father Jesus himself, before taking on human form? As far as speaking is concerned the OT is the Father speaking, and if Jesus says anything different to the OT it is not true, Jn 5:32.

Jesus as well as the word of God, taught that both righteousness and faith are required, and one cannot have one without the other, but never does one produce the other. Never does one verse replace all of scripture; righteousness and faith need to be defined, righteousness can be filthy rags, Isa 64:6, and faith can be not trusting in Christ, Isa 4:1.

Rev 14:12, are them who do not receive the mark of the beast; obedience for them is coincidence, them having the Law written on their hearts.

 

[Gary K]

Mine is not a theory, I do not use scientific method; mine is an interpretation, yours is teaching of men, the purpose of which is to abrogate the law of God, your own interpretation is in the context of the doctrine of men.

Wasn't Jesus's Father the Word of God who made the covenant with Moses, Wasn't Jesus's Father Jesus himself, before taking on human form? As far as speaking is concerned the OT is the Father speaking, and if Jesus says anything different to the OT it is not true, Jn 5:32.

Jesus as well as the word of God, taught that both righteousness and faith are required, and one cannot have one without the other, but never does one produce the other. Never does one verse replace all of scripture; righteousness and faith need to be defined, righteousness can be filthy rags, Isa 64:6, and faith can be not trusting in Christ, Isa 4:1.

Rev 14:12, are them who do not receive the mark of the beast; obedience for them is coincidence, them having the Law written on their hearts.

I will just agree to disagree as we seem to be too far apart in our understanding of scripture to continue any discussion.