Did Lehi and Alma see angels at the throne of God?

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,539
6,414
Midwest
✟81,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Alma 36
22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.


1 Nephi 1
5 Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people.
6 And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly.
7 And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.
8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.
 

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,539
6,414
Midwest
✟81,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I ask because I have the impression that angels are single.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:30


For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
D & C 132:17
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
I ask because I have the impression that angels are single.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
D & C 132:17


There are several meanings for the word "angels". Mixing quotes just because they contain the word angel will not give meaningful results. As always, context is important.

In the above quote, "these" angels are indicated. That means that the speaker considers there to be other angels, most likely those who did abide the law and can be enlarged. The quote does not prove the point you are attempting to make.


:)
 
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
non momon christians don't consider the book of mormons to be the word of god.



angels are spirits and don't have a gender and dont procreate. but they can and do manifest as humans, both male and female, as do demons as well.


What would be the point of manifesting as male, or female, if they don't have gender? Wouldn't that be a deceptive practice? Showing a false image of themselves? Why would angels do that?


:confused:
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,539
6,414
Midwest
✟81,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
There are several meanings for the word "angels". Mixing quotes just because they contain the word angel will not give meaningful results. As always, context is important.

In the above quote, "these" angels are indicated. That means that the speaker considers there to be other angels, most likely those who did abide the law and can be enlarged. The quote does not prove the point you are attempting to make.


:)

This is even more evidence of the illogical screwy language of Mormonism. Nothing means only what the dictionary says; Mormons have invented their own definitions to cover the mistakes made by their prophets. But those definitions aren't true ones.

No, those who abide the law and are enlarged are those who become gods; there is no reference in your scriptures to imply that angels and gods are the same. However, LDS teach that God, angels(including Satan), and men are the same species. The God of the Bible is uncreated, men and angels were created by God.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Rev55

Newbie
Jul 24, 2013
129
11
✟7,819.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
What would be the point of manifesting as male, or female, if they don't have gender? Wouldn't that be a deceptive practice? Showing a false image of themselves? Why would angels do that?


:confused:

Genesis 6:1-4(NKJV)


6 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Some say that this shows the fallen angels having children with women. not saying I agree or disagree just wanting to shed some more light on the subject while possibly mudding the waters.
 
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 6:1-4(NKJV)


6 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Some say that this shows the fallen angels having children with women. not saying I agree or disagree just wanting to shed some more light on the subject while possibly mudding the waters.


Thank you for your input. Interesting point.


:)
 
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
This is even more evidence of the illogical screwy language of Mormonism.


You mean, English?


Nothing means only what the dictionary says; Mormons have invented their own definitions to cover the mistakes made by their prophets. But those definitions aren't true ones.


Why don't we take a look at the definitions of angel and find out. This is taken from dictionary.com, a source I pick because I feel that it is as neutral as any.


1. one of a class of spiritual beings; a celestial attendant of God. In medieval angelology, angels constituted the lowest of the nine celestial orders (seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities or princedoms, archangels, and angels).

2. a conventional representation of such a being, in human form, with wings, usually in white robes.

3. a messenger, especially of God.

4. a person who performs a mission of God or acts as if sent by God: an angel of mercy.

5. a person having qualities generally attributed to an angel, as beauty, purity, or kindliness.


The first definition is of a heavenly being. And was the one I meant. So, it appears that your accusation of LDS inventing our own definitions is incorrect.

However, LDS often use the term angel to refer to a messenger of God (2) or a person on a mission for God (3). The term has several meanings and a wise person realizes this and doesn't insist that all uses of the word must mean only one of them.



No, those who abide the law and are enlarged are those who become gods; there is no reference in your scriptures to imply that angels and gods are the same. However, LDS teach that God, angels(including Satan), and men are the same species.


As I previously stated, attempting to force a single meaning of the word to fit into all uses of it is not wise. That is what you have attempted to do.

Explain to me who are the other angels in this scenario?



The God of the Bible is uncreated, men and angels were created by God.


You are expressing your interpretation of the Bible. How does that apply to our current discussion?



:)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Thank you Ran77 I love this topic personally I also reference the story of Sodom. The men wanted to "know" the angels so i assume they at least appeared to have anatomy. I cant comment on the information from the LDS texts because I don't personally agree with them.


I would be interested in hearing more about this.


:)
 
Upvote 0

Rev55

Newbie
Jul 24, 2013
129
11
✟7,819.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I would be interested in hearing more about this.


:)

well as far as the bible goes thats about all I got on this subject lol. However this goes back to a previous post if angels are genderless why appear as a man or woman? Why would these genderless beings apparently lust after the women in genesis 6 then choose to appear as men to procreate with them?
 
Upvote 0

JCFantasy23

In a Kingdom by the Sea.
Jul 1, 2008
46,723
6,386
Lakeland, FL
✟502,107.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
MOD HAT ON

94543-bigthumbnail.jpg


Hey everyone :wave: Just a quick reminder to stay on the topic. If you have another question about angels, please start a thread about that question. Thanks!

MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Mormonism:

Did Lehi and Alma see angels at the throne or did they only think they saw angels? Are gods angels?


This is the context of your first quote:

Alma 36:

6. For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to destroy the church of God; but behold, God sent his holy angel to stop us by the way.

7. And behold, he spake unto us, as it were the voice of thunder, and the whole earth did tremble beneath our feet; and we all fell to the earth, for the fear of the Lord came upon us.

8. But behold, the voice said unto me: Arise. And I arose and stood up, and beheld the angel.

9. And he said unto me: If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.

10. And it came to pass that I fell to the earth; and it was for the space of three days and three nights that I could not open my mouth, neither had I the use of my limbs.

11. And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did not hear them; for when I heard the words—If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God—I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.

12. But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.


17. And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18. Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19. And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21. Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22. Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.


This is one of my favorite section of scripture. It really clarifies the heaven, hell, and spiritual death elements of the gospel. However, to answer your question this seems like a vision. Alma is the only one who saw it. And he even states in the quote you provided that "methought" he saw this. Which strengthens the idea that it was a vision.


However, what this chapter does not indicate is if these are considered angels because they are 1) heavenly beings, 3) messengers of God, or 4) beings on a mission from God.


As for 1 Nehpi

5. Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people.

6. And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly.

7. And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.

8. And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.


The verse clearly identifies this as a vision. It goes further:

9. And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

10. And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

11. And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read.

12. And it came to pass that as he read, he was filled with the Spirit of the Lord.


The One is Jesus, the Christ. The twelve others would be His apostles. Based on that information it seems that all three of the above meanings are applicable. They were heavenly beings (beings that resided in heaven), they are messengers from God, and they would all be on a mission from God. But the important point is that Jesus seems to be One of the angels. I think that answers your questions about whether angels will be in the Celestial Kingdom and if there is a difference between angels and gods.



:)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums