Did Jesus Speak More about Hell than He did about Heaven ?

[A_Thinker]

For more than 50 years, I have heard ministers state that Jesus spoke more of Hell than He did of Heaven. I heard it so consistently, and heard no contradiction of the statement, so I imagined that it must be true.

But after I read through the scriptures for the first time, ... the statement seemed less and less plausible, ... though I continued to hear it. I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

So ... with the advent of electronic texts which could be searched for terms and topics, I did my own analysis. And I found that Jesus spoke of Hell on 60 or so occasions in the scriptures (including desciptive term such as of "outer darkness", "everlasting punishment", etc.), ... BUT, as one might expect, He spoke of Heaven (His home) more than three times as much.

On the one hand, I was relieved, because that accorded much better with my sense of scripture.

But, on the other hand, I wondered HOW it was that such a misfact had been propagated down through the years ... seemingly without challenge ... or honest evaluation by Christian leaders ? Why are Christian leaders so consistent in their proclamation of this mis-truth, ... and why did it require my own lay efforts to uncover the truth ?

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

 

[SkyWriting]

For more than 50 years, I have heard ministers state that Jesus spoke more of Hell than He did of Heaven. I heard it so consistently, and heard no contradiction of the statement, so I imagined that it must be true.

But after I read through the scriptures for the first time, ... the statement seemed less and less plausible, ... though I continued to hear it. I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

So ... with the advent of electronic texts which could be searched for terms and topics, I did my own analysis. And I found that Jesus spoke of Hell on 60 or so occasions in the scriptures (including desciptive term such as of "outer darkness", "everlasting punishment", etc.), ... BUT, as one might expect, He spoke of Heaven (His home) more than three times as much.

On the one hand, I was relieved, because that accorded mucg better with my sense of scripture.

But, on the other hand, I wondered HOW it was that such a misfact had been propagated down through the years ... seemingly without challenge ... or honest evaluation by Christian leaders ? Why are Christian leaders so consistent in their proclamation of this mis-truth, ... and why did it require my own lay efforts to uncover the truth ?

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

I don't know what searches you used, but if you limit your search to specific words or phrases, you can likely get any result you wish. I would not be surprised if Jesus "asked people to follow Him" and didn't mention Heaven so much. Yet Hell would have a nice neat label.

 

[A_Thinker]

I don't know what searches you used, but if you limit your search to specific words or phrases, you can likely get any result you wish. I would not be surprised if Jesus "asked people to follow Him" and didn't mention Heaven so much. Yet Hell would have a nice neat label.

I attempted to be intellectually honest in my studies on this.

I really wanted/want to know the truth ...

 

[Almost there]

Yes, I have a theory about this: An adult today accepts the hell message because it is what they were taught way back in VBS (Vacation Bible School) by adults they trusted. So they cling to it. What they don't know is that those adults learned it the same way, as did the adults that taught them, all the way back to the Reformation.

But the internet is blowing up a lot of "traditions of man" beliefs with the spread of articles, studies, and lexicons, which makes it extremely easy to study for yourself.

And this is my favorite web site on the subject: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

It cuts to the chase without getting into the weeds, but gives enough information to be rock solid.

 

[SkyWriting]

I attempted to be intellectually honest in my studies on this.

I really wanted/want to know the truth ...

And adding up word counts on each side has no particular value.
No offence intended. I admire the research and intent.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

For more than 50 years, I have heard ministers state that Jesus spoke more of Hell than He did of Heaven. I heard it so consistently, and heard no contradiction of the statement, so I imagined that it must be true.

But after I read through the scriptures for the first time, ... the statement seemed less and less plausible, ... though I continued to hear it. I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

So ... with the advent of electronic texts which could be searched for terms and topics, I did my own analysis. And I found that Jesus spoke of Hell on 60 or so occasions in the scriptures (including desciptive term such as of "outer darkness", "everlasting punishment", etc.), ... BUT, as one might expect, He spoke of Heaven (His home) more than three times as much.

On the one hand, I was relieved, because that accorded mucg better with my sense of scripture.

But, on the other hand, I wondered HOW it was that such a misfact had been propagated down through the years ... seemingly without challenge ... or honest evaluation by Christian leaders ? Why are Christian leaders so consistent in their proclamation of this mis-truth, ... and why did it require my own lay efforts to uncover the truth ?

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

(1) We still don't want to belittle the idea of hell. As you noted, Jesus spoke of it often (even 60 times is quite a bit, isn't it?) and sometimes it was in conjunction with "missing heaven"--like 5 of the 10 virgins for instance or one of the two builders or the two of four soils that cared at all about The Word and won't be in heaven.

(2) Is that the only lie you hear propagated by pastors? How about "come to the altar and say the four-step prayer so you can know you are going to heaven" lie? How about the "once saved, always saved" lie--as related to that emotional one-day altar run? Did you find in Scripture that Jesus never claimed to love everyone? Neither did He ever say that the Father loved everyone. Did you notice that when Jesus prayed (John 17), He specifically excluded the world (John 17:9,20); in contrast to how people abuse John 3:16 to claim unconditional love for everyone? If you ever get a chance to watch Scripture, notice how many times Jesus actually got angry in Scripture. The idea that "Jesus wouldn't do that" is propagated by people who don't know the Scriptures; but have a perception about Jesus they are just desperately trying to support. Where in Scripture does it talk about God's unconditional love? Answer: It doesn't. Jesus goes so far as to say that not everyone who calls Him "Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of His Father in heaven (Matt 7:21) and encourages his closest disciples to remain in His love by keeping His commandments (John 15:10) and tells them "there is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Then says "You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you." (John 15:13-4) "If a man loves Me, he will keep my words; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:23). And, then there are all the "he who overcomes" spoken to each church in Revelation 2 & 3--not everyone in the church, only those who overcome. And, those that blindly push that unconditional love doctrine fail to see that "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit" is one sure way for someone to ensure they won't be forgiven in this age or in the age to come (according to Jesus). How could that be, if God loved everyone unconditionally? Then there are those who are turned over to a a reprobate mind (Romans 1:18-32) or "sent a great delusion [by God and obviously while they are still alive] so they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"(2 Thes 2:10-12). Again, how can that be, if the commonly propagated lie were actually true? That man-made god would be desperately trying to lure them to himself up until the day of their last breath. But man-made gods are powerless. The sovereign Creator God is not.

 

[A_Thinker]

And adding up word counts on each side has no particular value.

Regarding the question at hand, (i.e. Did Jesus speak more ... ), ... I disagree with you here ...

 

[SkyWriting]

Regarding the question at hand, (i.e. Did Jesus speak more ... ), ... I disagree with you here ...

No problem. I appreciate the interest and all research.
I once tallied up all the saying of Jesus and noted if they
were literal or figurative on a neat sheet.

There was no way I could do the "Read the Bible in a Year" thing,
but this project got me to read much more than before.

 

[A_Thinker]

(2) Is that the only lie you hear propagated by pastors?

No ... but there is a difference between disagreements in interpretation ... and citing inaccuracy ..

 

[Almost there]

No ... but there is a difference between disagreements in interpretation ... and citing inaccuracy ..

Because I was in a southern Gospel band in the bible belt for a couple of years, I was exposed to a LOT of preaching in the many small churches in central KY. What I noticed was that a lot of the "preachers" were laymen that were paid, often, less than $50 a month to be the preacher. Many of them have no formal education in the bible and often are just good at yelling a lot and preaching about "hellfire". There are a lot of scared Christians down here. Some of these churches are "misery central".

It's really sad. I'm no longer in that band because after a preacher gave this "heaven or hell" speech, I said that the bible never talks about "heaven vs hell". It talks about "eternal life vs death". i.e. it is about condition, not geography.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

It was always my understanding that "Kingdom of Heaven" refers to all those who are his people. It's not a place, but a body of believers. In terms of actual descriptiveness, Jesus does give a few clues as to the nature of Hell, but he says almost nothing about what Heaven is like. As @SkyWriting noted, just a simple word count is misleading and doesn't really indicate which of the two he discussed more.

 

[Almost there]

Depending on your translation, Jesus may never mention "hell". And when you do see it, it is a translation of Gehenna, which was (and is) a real place. And it is used allegorically.

This explains the place, though I strongly disagree with the author's unsupported conclusions.
What Is Gehenna?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Yes, I have a theory about this: An adult today accepts the hell message because it is what they were taught way back in VBS (Vacation Bible School) by adults they trusted. So they cling to it. What they don't know is that those adults learned it the same way, as did the adults that taught them, all the way back to the Reformation.

But the internet is blowing up a lot of "traditions of man" beliefs with the spread of articles, studies, and lexicons, which makes it extremely easy to study for yourself.

And this is my favorite web site on the subject: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

It cuts to the chase without getting into the weeds, but gives enough information to be rock solid.

Why would an unbeliever care about eternity with God? They already believe that they just go to the grave when they die and they are only interested in themselves or the legacy that they leave behind after they die. Unbelievers reject the idea of hell, too.

But what if what Jesus said is actually True--I mean who would know better than the Son of God who came from the Father knowing He was going back to the Father? Why would He even suggest there was a place--like Gehenna? What happens if there is a place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"--that involves being in outer darkness and involves fire-like torment? Why would Jesus tell a story in Luke 16 about the rich man being in torment that suggested that torment to be associated with dehydrating heat, if the idea of souls living beyond this life is just greek mythology? Surely, you aren't suggesting that the greeks fooled Jesus!

Those people can choose to be "so sure", but I'll bet so are those who are turned over to a reprobate mind or a strong delusion (sent by God), as Scripture reports some will.

Don't get me wrong, God gets to do what He wills. He is the Sovereign God. So, if He chooses to punish for a time, then destroy, he can do that. If He chooses to just destroy in an instant, He can do that. I'm not going to challenge Him. God is the Judge. He is the One with the right and responsibility to Judge. Isaiah 66 suggests that those in Gehenna will be left there as an permanent example--not deteriorating as you might expect from destruction. After all, when humans burn the remains of the dead, we are left a pile of ashes. If man could do that, couldn't God? And, when a fire stops having something to burn, it goes out. Yet, in more than one place (Jesus in Mark 9, Isa 66:24, as examples), we are told that their fire is never quenched. How can that be, unless the fire has something left to consume--forever? And, how would they be an example forever, if they cease to exist?

There are differences with man than from every other created being that we can see, according to Scripture. The biggest of which, from my perspective, is that God breathed life into us. He just spoke other things into existence. So, the view of Luke 16 makes sense; though it is a before judgment view. If punishment/torture weren't a possibility in the afterlife, why would the rich man even be subjected to it in Jesus' story? Why wouldn't he just be sleeping until the judgment day when he is awakened to be judged and killed? Why would God even allow the temporary conscious torment?

When Jude talks about "the spots in His love feasts...twice dead....", he says they are reserved for the blackness of darkness for ever. Why not just stop with twice dead? When we are told that the devil, false prophet and the beast are thrown into the lake of fire, we are told they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10). Those who were resurrected in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them--even death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. But, for those who aren't written in the Book of Life, they are also cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) What about 1 Cor 15:42? All are resurrected, not just those who love God.

 

[Almost there]

Why would an unbeliever care about eternity with God? They already believe that they just go to the grave when they die and they are only interested in themselves or the legacy that they leave behind after they die. Unbelievers reject the idea of hell, too.

I've found the opposite to be true. In fact, people very much want to live. Death is a bad thing to most people.

And when I argue Christianity with people that are downright anti-Christian, it is imperative to them that Christianity teaches eternal conscious torment (ECT). That is what they attack as "comical" about Christianity.

But what if what Jesus said is actually True--I mean who would know better than the Son of God who came from the Father knowing He was going back to the Father? Why would He even suggest there was a place--like Gehenna?

Because Gehenna is where things are destroyed. And any person listening to Jesus' words would have understood it as such. The "unquenchable" fire was making the point that the method they used in the day to destroy stuff (fire) would not do a partial job and go out. It would do its work, utterly destroying what was thrown in.

This is why the word "consumed" is used and why we are to fear he that can destroy both the body AND soul in Gehenna. And the lost only have body and soul. They have not been born of the spirit.

And yes, there will be weeping (severe sorrow) and gnashing of teeth (bitter anger), when people realized their fate - right up until the time they are utterly destroyed for all eternity.
But I'm just re-inventing the wheel here. It's all covered very well at the site I linked as well as a lot of others. It's pretty exhaustive.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Because I was in a southern Gospel band in the bible belt for a couple of years, I was exposed to a LOT of preaching in the many small churches in central KY. What I noticed was that a lot of the "preachers" were laymen that were paid, often, less than $50 a month to be the preacher. Many of them have no formal education in the bible and often are just good at yelling a lot and preaching about "hellfire". There are a lot of scared Christians down here. Some of these churches are "misery central".

It's really sad. I'm no longer in that band because after a preacher gave this "heaven or hell" speech, I said that the bible never talks about "heaven vs hell". It talks about "eternal life vs death". i.e. it is about condition, not geography.

But, you were wrong. The Bible doesn't speak to just "heaven vs hell" OR "eternal life vs death", it speaks to BOTH. You were just as wrong as the preachers you chastise. Jesus didn't have to speak about "gehenna" at all, but He did. Why would Jesus even talk about tormenting that produced weeping and gnashing of teeth, if it wasn't the case? Regardless how you downplay Luke 16 "rich man and Lazarus" story, Jesus clearly leaves the impression that the dead aren't dead, but were being tormented so much that they wanted to get the word back to those they care about--so they believe it and don't end up in the same place. Why would Jesus even tell that story, if it wasn't true? After all, He could have made it very clear that you just die and that that death is the only consequence of the choice to not believe and obey. But, He didn't. Instead, He suggested it would be better to self-torture (and cut stuff off) than to endure the punishment of gehenna with all body parts. How would that make sense, if it was just life versus death.

And, if people who die, just die permanently, why would you even lift them out of the grave to kill them again?

 

[Almost there]

But, you were wrong. The Bible doesn't speak to just "heaven vs hell" OR "eternal life vs death", it speaks to BOTH. You were just as wrong as the preachers you chastise. Jesus didn't have to speak about "gehenna" at all, but He did. Why would Jesus even talk about tormenting that produced weeping and gnashing of teeth, if it wasn't the case? Regardless how you downplay Luke 16 "rich man and Lazarus" story, Jesus clearly leaves the impression that the dead aren't dead, but were being tormented so much that they wanted to get the word back to those they care about--so they believe it and don't end up in the same place. Why would Jesus even tell that story, if it wasn't true? After all, He could have made it very clear that you just die and that that death is the only consequence of the choice to not believe and obey. But, He didn't. Instead, He suggested it would be better to self-torture (and cut stuff off) than to endure the punishment of gehenna with all body parts. How would that make sense, if it was just life versus death.

And, if people who die, just die permanently, why would you even lift them out of the grave to kill them again?

The bible speaks of the fate of the lost, and it speaks of the fate of the saved. But where it speaks of both in the same sentence, it is always "life vs death", or "life vs destruction", or "life vs perish", etc.

The "heaven vs hell" message is man made.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The bible speaks of the fate of the lost, and it speaks of the fate of the saved. But where it speaks of both in the same sentence, it is always "life vs death", or "life vs destruction", or "life vs perish", etc.

The "heaven vs hell" message is man made.

But, taking it to the point of the fate of both isn't contradictory to the life versus death message. Highlighting the "heaven" and "hell" fates, only helps us see more concretely what the states of eternal life and eternal death look like. It is not at all inconsistent to say the irreversible second death/permanent separation from God and eternal torment could refer to the same thing, if there is something recognizable of "who we were" lives on after we die (like Jesus shared in Luke 16--prior to His death and resurrection). Why would something recognizable of us--whether we were good or bad in God's sight--live on, before what He did on the cross but not after? There is no legitimate reason to think that.

 

[HereIStand]

Sounds like an worthwhile project and a good verse reference. My sense though is that in evangelical churches mention of hell (at least directly) is almost considered bad taste. There seems to be a gap between how directly Jesus warned of hell and how seldom it is mentioned in evangelical sermons.

 

[Almost there]

Sounds like an worthwhile project and a good verse reference. My sense though is that in evangelical churches mention of hell (at least directly) is almost considered bad taste. There seems to be a gap between how directly Jesus warned of hell and how seldom it is mentioned in evangelical sermons.

I've found the opposite to be true in the southern baptist churches here in central KY. Virtually every message mentions, or is centered on, hellfire.

If you have to scare people into church, you're doing it wrong.

 

[HereIStand]

Yes, I have a theory about this: An adult today accepts the hell message because it is what they were taught way back in VBS (Vacation Bible School) by adults they trusted. So they cling to it. What they don't know is that those adults learned it the same way, as did the adults that taught them, all the way back to the Reformation.

But the internet is blowing up a lot of "traditions of man" beliefs with the spread of articles, studies, and lexicons, which makes it extremely easy to study for yourself.

And this is my favorite web site on the subject: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

It cuts to the chase without getting into the weeds, but gives enough information to be rock solid.

I would recommend the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson. It's good refutation of annihilationism and universalism.