Did Jesus Ever "Violate" Anyone's "Free Will"?

[A_Thinker]

How do you decide which words of Christ to ignore?

WHICH words of JESUS am I ignoring ?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Congratulations, you are taking the role of the objector in Romans 9 (which is common in those who oppose Reformed Theology):


Romans 9:14-23 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

God is not obligated to anyone, nor can God's grace be demanded.

No one will be in Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but God condemned me because I was not elect."

He is the Potter, and we are the clay, right?

Romans 9:9:22

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


The above is the favorite go to verse for Calvinism to attack the view of libertarian free will. The verse was used to teach that God has the right to use Israel by binding her over to disobedience: Judaism, groups, nations, not individuals. As confirmed by this supporting verse:


Romans 9:11-13

11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”c 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”



Genesis 25:23

23The LORD said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger.”


Same lump: men.
Dishonorable use : Israel
Honorable use: Body of Christ.

Does God Really Hate Esau?
Posted by Bill Pratt


Does God Really Hate Esau?

Many Christians are shocked when they read Romans 9:13 : “Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'” Since when does the God of love hate people? This verse, coupled with the rest of Romans 9, has led many to believe that God does not love all people, at least with regard to their eternal salvation. He seems to arbitrarily choose some people for salvation and some people for damnation. But must we interpret this verse in that way?

I think the answer is “no.” A more careful reading of this passage indicates that the subject is not individual salvation, but Israel’s national role in redemptive history.

Paul is actually quoting from Mal. 1:2-3 , and a reading of those verses in the context of Malachi’s book clearly indicates that Malachi is using the word “Jacob” to refer to the nation of Israel and the word “Esau” to refer to the nation of Edom.

This makes perfect sense because Romans 9, 10, and 11 are all about national Israel and her role in redemptive history. Romans 9 refers to Israel’s past, Romans 10 refers to her present, and Romans 11 refers to her future.

It is a serious exegetical mistake to interpret Romans 9 to be referring to individuals’ salvation. According to Norman Geisler, “the election of the nation was temporal, not eternal; that is, Israel was chosen as a national channel through which the eternal blessing of salvation through Christ would come to all people (cf. Gen. 12:1–3 ; Rom. 9:4–5 ). Not every individual in Israel was elected to be saved (9:6).”

God works through nations to accomplish his will, just as he works through individuals. Just because Israel was the chosen nation to bring forth the Messiah did not mean that every Israelite would be individually saved. Individual salvation has never been and will never be based on a person’s nationality. Paul is talking about the nation of Israel in Romans 9, not individual salvation.

Finally, it is also important to explain that the word used for “hate” in Malachi 1 is a Hebrew idiom which actually means to “love less.” Norman Geisler explains: “This is evident from Genesis 29:30 : The phrase ‘loved Rachel more than Leah’ is used as the equivalent of ‘Leah was hated’ (cf. also Matt. 10:37 ).”

God does not hate anyone, but he does bless some nations more than others.

 

[bling]

Hello jimmyjimmy.

No such thing as a pure free will. The idea of a 'free will' is a philosophical idea.

Mankind's decision making process is driven wholly from a selfish preoccupation.

No one ever chose to know or even to serve God, no one. Everyone serves themselves, everyone feathers their own nest, we have a self fixation.

God is love, we are the opposite, enslaved and not free, we do not love of our own volition.

Can a nonbelieving sinner for selfish reasons give up, wimp out, and surrender to his enemy (God)?
I am not saying the sinner is joining God since at the moment of his surrendering God is still his enemy, but the person is willing to humbly accept undeserved pure sacrificial charity from his/her enemy. This is like what the prodigal did for selfish motivations.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello bling.

You stated.

Can a nonbelieving sinner for selfish reasons give up, wimp out, and surrender to his enemy (God)?

A sinner must be drawn to God and made aware of his state before God, thus God must call first before a sinner can respond. So a sinner cannot freely choose God, nor can a sinner stop sinning by their own will.

I am not saying the sinner is joining God since at the moment of his surrendering God is still his enemy, but the person is willing to humbly accept undeserved pure sacrificial charity from his/her enemy. This is like what the prodigal did for selfish motivations.

You will need to explain this part of your post again.

 

[Mountainmike]

When Jesus walked the earth, did He ever "violate" anyone's "free will"?

The old chestnut of such arguments is did Judas have free will, did he have free choice. Was it his destiny to betray Jesus, determined before he was born? Shades of Calvinist predestination!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hello jimmyjimmy.

No such thing as a pure free will. The idea of a 'free will' is a philosophical idea.

Mankind's decision making process is driven wholly from a selfish preoccupation.

No one ever chose to know or even to serve God, no one. Everyone serves themselves, everyone feathers their own nest, we have a self fixation.

God is love, we are the opposite, enslaved and not free, we do not love of our own volition.

Amen.

When I think of what Christ has freed me from, my understanding, and experience, is that He has freed me from the prison of self-preoccupation, self-centeredness. He has freed me to love and be loved. . .

 

[DennisTate]

When Jesus walked the earth, did He ever "violate" anyone's "free will"?

Yeshua - Jesus certainly violated the free will of the Legion of devils who had control of the man from Genesaret.

He also went against the will of the money changers in the temple.

Former Atheist Howard Storm predicts that within two centuries God will decrease free will somewhat..... and pour out more of the Holy Spirit to usher in that age when lions eat straw like an ox. His book, My Descent Into Death was exceptional.

 

[DennisTate]

When Jesus walked the earth, did He ever "violate" anyone's "free will"?

Yeshua - Jesus certainly violated the free will of the Legion of devils who had control of the man from Genesaret.

He also went against the will of the money changers in the temple.

Former Atheist Howard Storm predicts that within two centuries God will decrease free will somewhat..... and pour out more of the Holy Spirit to usher in that age when lions eat straw like an ox. His book, My Descent Into Death was exceptional.

 

[Open Heart]

When Jesus walked the earth, did He ever "violate" anyone's "free will"?

No. Does God violate anything?

 

[bling]

Hello bling.

You stated.

A sinner must be drawn to God and made aware of his state before God, thus God must call first before a sinner can respond. So a sinner cannot freely choose God, nor can a sinner stop sinning by their own will.

You will need to explain this part of your post again.

An invitation to a huge wonderful feast is a huge “draw” and you really have to work at coming up with an excuse for not going, but the King is not going to kidnap you to get you in His house.

The “draw” for the soldier of satan battling God is during those times he is brought to his senses by his own poor decisions and sees where he is heading, while having just some kind of livable life possible with God is very much a draw (like it was for the prodigal son).

The soldier (or sinner) is not choosing to join his enemy (like the sinner is not choosing to join God) and he does not have the power to not fight, if he stays where he is at, but the soldier of satan can show a white flag and stand up (the sinner can just mentally turn to God).

This is what I am saying with:

The sinner is not joining God since at the moment of his surrendering God is still his enemy, but the person is willing to humbly accept undeserved pure sacrificial charity from his/her enemy. This is like what the prodigal did for selfish motivations.

 

[-V-]

WHICH words of JESUS am I ignoring ?

Wow, no kidding. Hard to imagine how Jimmy came up with that little gem.

I'd like to sign up to receive a dollar every time someone on the pro-Calvinist side makes a statement that grossly misrepresents something I said. It would apparently be a great source of supplemental income.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. Does God violate anything?

That is an interesting question. Can God violate or not violate something that does not exist? For example, can God violate the ecosystem of the sun? In this particular thread, the question ought to be can God violate something that does not exist - human free will?

 

[Rescued One]

I will be grateful throughout eternity that God intervened in my life against my parents' desires.

 

[sdowney717]

The old chestnut of such arguments is did Judas have free will, did he have free choice. Was it his destiny to betray Jesus, determined before he was born? Shades of Calvinist predestination!

Do satanically possessed people have a free will? Seems not so to me.
How about those under the sway of the devil? Seems to me they do not.
Apostle John says the whole world lies under the sway of the Wicked one, Satan.
So they are under the influence of the Satan drug, so they are not in their right mind, some are more under his sway than others, but all are under his sway.
Read 2 Corinthians 4 for more about this.

 

[Open Heart]

That is an interesting question. Can God violate or not violate something that does not exist? For example, can God violate the ecosystem of the sun? In this particular thread, the question ought to be can God violate something that does not exist - human free will?

God set rules for the universe when he first created it. We call these rules the laws of Nature. God will allow things to happen that might be 1 in a billion gazillion -- something approaching infinity so that we call them miracles, but still within the Laws of Nature. It's ridiculous to say that God would violate his own wishes.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God set rules for the universe when he first created it. We call these rules the laws of Nature. God will allow things to happen that might be 1 in a billion gazillion -- something approaching infinity so that we call them miracles, but still within the Laws of Nature. It's ridiculous to say that God would violate his own wishes.

I entirely agree. God cannot, and will not, violate anything that He did not create.

 

[Aseyesee]

If God did, he did.

 

[Rescued One]

Romans 9:9:22

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


The above is the favorite go to verse for Calvinism to attack the view of libertarian free will. The verse was used to teach that God has the right to use Israel by binding her over to disobedience: Judaism, groups, nations, not individuals. As confirmed by this supporting verse:


Romans 9:11-13

11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”c 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”



Genesis 25:23

23The LORD said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger.”


Same lump: men.
Dishonorable use : Israel
Honorable use: Body of Christ.

Does God Really Hate Esau?
Posted by Bill Pratt


Does God Really Hate Esau?

Many Christians are shocked when they read Romans 9:13 : “Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'” Since when does the God of love hate people? This verse, coupled with the rest of Romans 9, has led many to believe that God does not love all people, at least with regard to their eternal salvation. He seems to arbitrarily choose some people for salvation and some people for damnation. But must we interpret this verse in that way?

I think the answer is “no.” A more careful reading of this passage indicates that the subject is not individual salvation, but Israel’s national role in redemptive history.

Paul is actually quoting from Mal. 1:2-3 , and a reading of those verses in the context of Malachi’s book clearly indicates that Malachi is using the word “Jacob” to refer to the nation of Israel and the word “Esau” to refer to the nation of Edom.

This makes perfect sense because Romans 9, 10, and 11 are all about national Israel and her role in redemptive history. Romans 9 refers to Israel’s past, Romans 10 refers to her present, and Romans 11 refers to her future.

It is a serious exegetical mistake to interpret Romans 9 to be referring to individuals’ salvation. According to Norman Geisler, “the election of the nation was temporal, not eternal; that is, Israel was chosen as a national channel through which the eternal blessing of salvation through Christ would come to all people (cf. Gen. 12:1–3 ; Rom. 9:4–5 ). Not every individual in Israel was elected to be saved (9:6).”

God works through nations to accomplish his will, just as he works through individuals. Just because Israel was the chosen nation to bring forth the Messiah did not mean that every Israelite would be individually saved. Individual salvation has never been and will never be based on a person’s nationality. Paul is talking about the nation of Israel in Romans 9, not individual salvation.

Finally, it is also important to explain that the word used for “hate” in Malachi 1 is a Hebrew idiom which actually means to “love less.” Norman Geisler explains: “This is evident from Genesis 29:30 : The phrase ‘loved Rachel more than Leah’ is used as the equivalent of ‘Leah was hated’ (cf. also Matt. 10:37 ).”

God does not hate anyone, but he does bless some nations more than others.

God doesn't punish unjustly, but so many people think that if he punishes, he's unloving.

John's Testimony Concerning Jesus
John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Imitators of God
Ephesians 5
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.


God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[Open Heart]

I entirely agree. God cannot, and will not, violate anything that He did not create.

Did you type this the way you meant? It certainly doesn't agree with me.

 

[Wordkeeper]

God doesn't punish unjustly, but so many people think that if he punishes, he's unloving.

John's Testimony Concerning Jesus
John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Imitators of God
Ephesians 5
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.


God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

God doesn't chose people for dishonorable use before they do good or evil. He chooses groups, like nations, tribes, ethnic blocks for this. If He chose Israel to deny Jesus's messiah hood and execute Him, fulfilling His role as a sin offering, individuals need not be stuck with the blame. All they have to do is convert to Christianity. Then whatever punishment is given to Israel will not fall on them.