Did Jesus Ever "Violate" Anyone's "Free Will"?

[Aseyesee]

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Great verse there; there is also in Philippians 2: 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

 

[-V-]

And man's choice is limited by his nature. So the unregenerate man will not choose God because he has no ability to.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

So, with Calvinism, men (who didn't choose their corrupted nature) can't choose God. And God may simply decide to not draw them, leaving them to be ultimately damned.

So, again under Calvinism, they didn't choose their nature, they can't choose God... and God damns them for it. And this is supposed to be a righteous and just act of God because... how? Please tell me you have something better than "because He can."

 

[Aseyesee]

Great verse there; there is also in Philippians 2: 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

.... that scripture is my confidence ...

 

[faroukfarouk]

.... that scripture is my confidence ...

Well, exactly!

 

[Aseyesee]

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

In my initial experience with God (that I was aware of that is), he rescued me (from a situtation) though I had not ask him to, which sent me on a journey to find the one who did.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

In my initial experience with God (that I was aware of that is), he rescued me (from a situtation) though I had not ask him to, which sent me on a journey to find the one who did.

Great verse! answers the question of who ultimately chose whom!

 

[JoeP222w]

So, with Calvinism, men (who didn't choose their corrupted nature) can't choose God. And God may simply decide to not draw them, leaving them to be ultimately damned.

So, again under Calvinism, they didn't choose their nature, they can't choose God... and God damns them for it. And this is supposed to be a righteous and just act of God because... how? Please tell me you have something better than "because He can."

Congratulations, you are taking the role of the objector in Romans 9 (which is common in those who oppose Reformed Theology):


Romans 9:14-23 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

God is not obligated to anyone, nor can God's grace be demanded.

No one will be in Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but God condemned me because I was not elect."

 

[Aseyesee]

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

In my initial experience with God (that I was aware of that is), he rescued me (from a situtation) though I had not ask him to, which sent me on a journey to find the one who did.

 

[-V-]

Congratulations, you are taking the role of the objector in Romans 9 (which is common in those who oppose Reformed Theology):


Romans 9:14-23 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

God is not obligated to anyone, nor can God's grace be demanded.

Right. So your answer does, in fact, amount to nothing more than, "because He can."

 

[JoeP222w]

Right. So your answer does, in fact, amount to nothing more than, "because He can."

You argument is with God. You appear that you don't like the system that He created and want to deny His sovereign right to do with His creation as He chooses.

 

[A_Thinker]

-V- said: ↑

Right. So your answer does, in fact, amount to nothing more than, "because He can."

JoeP222w said: Your argument is with God. You appear that you don't like the system that He created and want to deny His sovereign right to do with His creation as He chooses.

But ... He also, rather extravagantly, claims to be GOOD, and JUST, ... and to LOVE HIS CREATION ...

 

[JoeP222w]

But ... He also, rather extravagantly, claims to be GOOD, and JUST, ... and to LOVE HIS CREATION ...

Would it be good, loving and just to bring a depraved, wicked, evil, rebel sinner, one who has violated God's perfect and holy law, in every manner possible, who hates God with every fiber of his or her being, into the kingdom of God and turn a blind eye to their every sin?

I say that that in no way is good, loving or just, but seems to be what you are suggesting.

 

[A_Thinker]

Would it be good, loving and just to bring a depraved, wicked, evil, rebel sinner, one who has violated God's perfect and holy law, in every manner possible, who hates God with every fiber of his or her being, into the kingdom of God and turn a blind eye to their every sin?

Isn't that what Calvinists say He has done with the elect ?

 

[-V-]

You argument is with God. You appear that you don't like the system that He created and want to deny His sovereign right to do with His creation as He chooses.

And right to the straw man misrepresentations once again.

I don't have a problem with God's sovereignty. I have a problem with YOUR INTERPRETATION of God's sovereignty.

 

[-V-]

Would it be good, loving and just to bring a depraved (which they never chose to be, that nature was thrust upon them), wicked (which they never chose to be, that nature was thrust upon them), evil (which they never chose, that nature was thrust upon them), rebel sinner (which they never chose, that nature was thrust upon them), one who has violated God's perfect and holy law (which they never chose, that nature was thrust upon them), in every manner possible, who hates God (which they never chose, that nature was thrust upon them) with every fiber of his or her being, into the kingdom of God and turn a blind eye to their every sin (which they never chose, that nature was thrust upon them)?

I say that that in no way is good, loving or just, but seems to be what you are suggesting.

(Fixed your quote for you.) But it's good, loving, and just to condemn them without them having any choice whatsoever? That's like programming a robot to kill, and then blaming the robot for doing it rather than blaming the programmer who was in control the whole time.

 

[JoeP222w]

Isn't that what Calvinists say He has done with the elect ?

No, not at all.

 

[-V-]

No, not at all.

Yes, according to Calvinism, that is exactly what God has done with the elect. He decided to take those foul sinners, and force them to become believers.

 

[JoeP222w]

(Fixed your quote for you.) But it's good, loving, and just to condemn them without them having any choice whatsoever? That's like programming a robot to kill, and then blaming the robot for doing it rather than blaming the programmer who was in control the whole time.

Right back to Romans 9.

 

[-V-]

Right back to Romans 9.

Right back to nothing more than "because He can".