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YahuahSaves

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Yes, that is what I quoted him as saying.

I said, "...there's disagreement among creationists about whether "kind" equates to "family" as Ken Hamm suggests." In short, I said Ken Hamm had suggested that "kind" equates to "family."

You said, "Ken Ham didn't say any such thing."

I said, "Uh, yes he did say exactly that." And then I provided a transcript which shows that he said, "The Hebrew word for "kind" probably equates in most instances to what's called a family level of classification."

He literally suggested that "kind" and "family" mean the same thing, and I never stated otherwise.

Of course, if you would care to quote the post in which I said Ken Hamm said "kind" equated to something other than "family," I'd be happy to admit I was wrong.

The bible says "2 of each kind" meaning the "family" is the extension of the origin word "kind". He explains the process very well scientifically if you're willing to listen. He describes the causes of gene mutation in DNA as well. As for humanity, the original DNA code was given to Adam and Eve. Perhaps watch the video in full. I'm not arguing points because Darwinism never talks about possible origin except for in a personal letter.
 
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Kylie

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OK so I took your statement to mean Ken Ham said he himself disagreed with other creationists by your entire statement including AV... (who has nothing to do with our conversation, so maybe take that up with him)?
If you had actually read what I wrote, you would see that I said Ken Hamm said "kind" probably means "family." I was pointing out that other creationists disagree.

In any case, you completely ignored the actual important question I raised in post 124. I'll repeat it here for you.

In any case, Ken says there is only one cat kind. How do you think we got the huge variety of cats in the few thousand years since Noah's flood if not for evolution? I mean, from what Ken says, all the cats that were taken on board the ark were the same kind, and yet from them we have everything from tigers to lions to cheetahs, pumas, servals, ocelots and a whole bunch of others (see THIS page on Wikipedia for a list of different types of cats). How did we get all these different types of cats if not for evolution?
 
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YahuahSaves

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In any case, Ken says there is only one cat kind

And I'll keep pointing you to the video because he explains the causes in detail. He describes the same thing when talking about dogs. It's partly human interference.
 
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YahuahSaves

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The words "All things" aren't hard to understand. Or do words not mean what they mean anymore?
If you actually read the bible it says all things are under His (Gods) command. He gave us the ability to choose. There are 2 choices he gave us. Spiritual Life (following Gods will) or spiritual death (following Satan's will/and our human "flesh" will) the latter is called "sin".

God is still in control, and he is long-suffering, but eventually he gives people over to their debased minds when they do not repent (turn away) from sin. God is a God of his word, what he says cannot return void. He gave humanity a choice (we call it "free will") and he does not interfere with that choice unless it's in-line with his plan and purpose for humanity.
 
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Kylie

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The bible says "2 of each kind" meaning the "family" is the extension of the origin word "kind". He explains the process very well scientifically if you're willing to listen. He describes the causes of gene mutation in DNA as well. As for humanity, the original DNA code was given to Adam and Eve. Perhaps watch the video in full. I'm not arguing points because Darwinism never talks about possible origin except for in a personal letter.
Let's recap the situation so far.

In post 97, you post a video.

In post 116, I say the video is almost an hour long and ask you to provide a few bullet points to summarize that video.

In post 118, You refer me back to the video in post 97.

In post 119, I point out that telling me to watch the video that I asked for a summary of is not actually providing me with a summary.

In post 121, you said that the video in post 97 was NOT the video I was asking about, but it actually was. I figure you got the idea that I was originally asking you about the video you posted in post 77. I'll take this as an honest mistake, of course. In any case, you directed me to a particular point in the video "about twenty minutes in."

I went back to that video and looked to see what was about 20 minutes in. There was a chapter that started at about the 17:30 mark, so I figured that's the bit you wanted me to watch, since that was about 20 minutes in. I watched it, had a question (about how we could get the wide variety of cats we have today if only one kind of cat was in the ark if there was no evolution). I posted that question in post 124.

In post 126, you were just rude, saying that I should have watched the video. Of course, I had watched the video, that's what prompted me to ask the question about cats.

And then in post 127, you specifically address the bit where Ken Hamm said that "kind" probably equates to "family," which was the basis of the cat question I asked. In that post, you claim that Ken Hamm never said that kind probably equates to family.

In post 129, I show you that Ken Hamm did say precisely that, giving a link to the video with the time stamp so it would start playing directly at the relevant part. I even went through and provided a written transcript of what he said to show you that Ken Hamm really did say kind probably equates to family, despite your claims he never said that.

In post 131, you claimed that I had originally quoted Ken Hamm as saying something other than "kind probably equates to family."

In post 133, you try to say that Ken Hamm was showing what the Bible does NOT say.

In post 135, I pointed out that I never claimed he had said anything different, I provided a recap of the conversation that led to that point, and I asked you to show me where I said that Ken Hamm said something other than "kind probably equates to family." You have ignored that request. May I assume you have withdrawn the claim that I originally quoted Ken Hamm as saying something that contradicts the "kind probably equates to family" statement?

In post 137, I pointed out that what you mentioned in post 133, what Ken Hamm showed the Bible does not say was that the Bible does not say that Noah took every animal into the ark, it only says he took the land animals on. I pointed out that I never contradicted that statement, and I even included it in the transcript.

In post 140, you backtracked on that and said basically that you had misunderstood me, so I'm willing to let that go, since the "different Christians disagree on what Kind means" discussion isn't relevant to the question I actually wanted you to answer, the one about the cats.

Now you are directing me to go and watch the video from post 97 in full, despite the fact that this is the video I originally asked you to summarize in a few bullet points because it's an hour long. We're right back where we started!

I don't think I'm asking too much here. A few points to sum up the main arguments in the video from post 97, and an answer to the cat question. I'll post the cat question again for you so you don't have to go looking for it.

Ken says there is only one cat kind. How do you think we got the huge variety of cats in the few thousand years since Noah's flood if not for evolution? I mean, from what Ken says, all the cats that were taken on board the ark were the same kind, and yet from them we have everything from tigers to lions to cheetahs, pumas, servals, ocelots and a whole bunch of others (see THIS page on Wikipedia for a list of different types of cats). How did we get all these different types of cats if not for evolution?
 
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YahuahSaves

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Ken says there is only one cat kind. How do you think we got the huge variety of cats in the few thousand years since Noah's flood if not for evolution?
I already told you he describes the dog "kind" and how that would have come about, so I assumed you would understand the same would apply to cats and not to mention, humans have been breeding dogs and cats for hundreds of years.

Is your idea of evolution based on Darwinism? Ken Ham addresses his theories in his video as well. Here is a short 10 minute video to (perhaps) get your attention about the origins of Darwin's theory. Video
 
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Kylie

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I already told you he describes the dog "kind" and how that would have come about, so I assumed you would understand the same would apply to cats and not to mention, humans have been breeding dogs and cats for hundreds of years.

Is your idea of evolution based on Darwinism? Ken Ham addresses his theories in his video as well. Here is a short 10 minute video to (perhaps) get your attention about the origins of Darwin's theory. Video
Yes, I know he says there was a "dog" kind, and that there was a "cat" kind as well.

But the "humans bred them" argument doesn't work for cats. How did we get servals and panthers and tigers and lions and ocelots from the one kind of cat that Noah had on the ark? There is such a wide variety of characteristics, and most species of cats are wild animals, so they weren't bred by Humans. Unless you think that wild lions are the result of Human-controlled breeding programs? Evolution seems to be the only explanation for this variety.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Yes, I know he says there was a "dog" kind, and that there was a "cat" kind as well.

But the "humans bred them" argument doesn't work for cats. How did we get servals and panthers and tigers and lions and ocelots from the one kind of cat that Noah had on the ark? There is such a wide variety of characteristics, and most species of cats are wild animals, so they weren't bred by Humans. Unless you think that wild lions are the result of Human-controlled breeding programs? Evolution seems to be the only explanation for this variety.
Well I'm delving into that but generally speaking, the reality of DNA and gene mutation that Ken Ham talks about actually support natural selection but don't support evolution because in reality DNA sequence loses information over time. That would actually suggest we're "devolving" instead of evolving ^_^

But this aside, I cleared up what my OP was referring to in terms of evolution. My view will never be the scientific view of evolution, because I know the origin of the universe already. #61
 
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Kylie

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Well I'm delving into that but generally speaking, the reality of DNA and gene mutation that Ken Ham talks about actually support natural selection but don't support evolution because in reality DNA sequence loses information over time. That would actually suggest we're "devolving" instead of evolving ^_^
Okay, two things here.

Evolutionary theory says that the genes (and thus the traits that come about according to those genes), are mixed together from the genes of the parents. There are also a number of mutations that happen randomly (this randomness doesn't mean that evolution itself is random, however). So each individual has a combination of traits that is unique.

Some of these traits may be helpful, and some of these traits could be harmful. Natural selection is simply the process by which the individuals with the traits that harm them are weeded out, typically because they don't live long enough to reproduce and pass the genes for those harmful traits onto any offspring. Similarly, the individuals that have traits that help them survive are more likely to have more offspring simply because they live longer (since they have the traits that help them survive).

So it comes down to where these different traits come from.

You mentioned that DNA sequences (which are the genes) lose information over time. This is not true. Gene duplication is a well documented phenomenon. A gene can be duplicated, and then it can change over many generations to develop a new function, thus adding to the amount of genetic information. This site goes into more detail. How Does New Genetic Information Evolve? Part 2: Gene Duplications • Stated Clearly

So we have a process by which genes that are harmful are removed from the population (because any individual with such a gene is unlikely to have a long life and thus has fewer chances to reproduce and pass that harmful gene on) and beneficial genes are spread throughout the population (because any individual with such genes is more likely to live longer and thus will have more chances to reproduce, passing the beneficial genes on more often). We also have a process by which new genetic information can be formed, the gene duplication.

This addresses your two criticisms of evolution.
But this aside, I cleared up what my OP was referring to in terms of evolution. My view will never be the scientific view of evolution, because I know the origin of the universe already. #61
What you wrote in post 61 is not an explanation of how you think biological evolution works.
 
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Occams Barber

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The thing about atheism is the blind faith they have that no creator exists. That's what I would call "denialism" at its finest. If proof is what one needs and there lacks a sufficient amount of it on both sides, then why not agnosticism? Would be at least a bit more open-minded IMO.

This little paragraph only confirms what I've learned about Creationists' lack of understanding.

I don't deny the existence of your God. I'll happily believe once I see evidence that he/she/it exists. My position is simple and is shared by most atheists- in order to accept the existence of your God I need evidence. Until evidence is provided, I have no reason to believe. You probably have the same attitude to Thor or Ra or any of the thousands of gods invented by humans. To be agnostic means that you are undecided.

You're also confusing atheism with acceptance of Evolution- a common failing among Creationists. It's entirely possible to be an atheist and not accept Evolution. It's also possible to be a Christian and accept Evolution. The two are not connected.

Evolution is not an atheist concept. It's a scientific concept which is often embraced by atheists and Christians as a reasonable explanation for the ongoing process of change in life forms.

OB
 
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Kylie

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This little paragraph only confirms what I've learned about Creationists' lack of understanding.

I don't deny the existence of your God. I'll happily believe once I see evidence that he/she/it exists. My position is simple and is shared by most atheists- in order to accept the existence of your God I need evidence. Until evidence is provided, I have no reason to believe. You probably have the same attitude to Thor or Ra or any of the thousands of gods invented by humans. To be agnostic means that you are undecided.
I agree.

I do not hold the position, "I know there is no God."

Instead, I hold the position, "I don't have a belief in God, but if sufficient evidence were provided to me to show that God exists, I will accept that evidence and change my beliefs accordingly."

It's like how I don't believe there is a cat sitting at my front door (since I have seen no evidence to suggest there is a cat there). But that's not the same thing as me saying that I know for a fact there isn't a cat sitting outside my front door. After all, there COULD be a cat there, for all I know.
You're also confusing atheism with acceptance of Evolution- a common failing among Creationists. It's entirely possible to be an atheist and not accept Evolution. It's also possible to be a Christian and accept Evolution. The two are not connected.

Evolution is not an atheist concept. It's a scientific concept which is often embraced by atheists and Christians as a reasonable explanation for the ongoing process of change in life forms.

OB
Agreed. There are many Christians who accept the evidence for evolution. My husband is one of them.
 
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driewerf

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Can anyone Prove anything other than Micro Evolution?
In the most restricted meaning of the word "proof", as restricted as a mathematical proof, the answer is no.
But there is a plethora of evidence covering the whole of the biological world that very strongly shows macroevolution. There is of course the fossil record, there is the geographical distribution of plants and animals and there is a whole series of evidence in the molecular biology.
 
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Kylie

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In the most restricted meaning of the word "proof", as restricted as a mathematical proof, the answer is no.
But there is a plethora of evidence covering the whole of the biological world that very strongly shows macroevolution. There is of course the fossil record, there is the geographical distribution of plants and animals and there is a whole series of evidence in the molecular biology.
The molecular evidence alone is enough to show that evolution occurs.
 
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driewerf

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The molecular evidence alone is enough to show that evolution occurs.
Yes indeed. But fossils are the most visual line of evidence. A protein sequence is for the non initiated just a meaningless strig of letters. It requires a much higher scientific education to understand the argument made - let alone accept it.
 
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driewerf

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I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

It is your prerogative not to question the answers provided. But if they can't stand the tiniest scrutiny - worse, if they need to be shielded from being questioned, what are they than worth?

Depends if you believe in God or not?

If you don't believe in God, you have a question you can't answer. If you believe in God, you have an answer you can't question. :oldthumbsup:
To have unanswered questions isn't a catastrophe. It is just an invitation to study and investigate further. I think that it is that meaning of how @Astrophile's first part of the sentence needs to be read. As for answers that can not be questioned. These aren't a sign of strength, but of weakness and insecurity. I have written it earlier and will repeat myself. Question and investigate as much as possible. If I were been shown wrong on something, or something I think to be true were shown to be wrong, my identity or worldview wouldn't collapse. I would thank you for relieving me from an error, from a burden. For discarding an error is freeing the mind for true things.
 
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Occams Barber

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Yes indeed. But fossils are the most visual line of evidence. A protein sequence is for the non initiated just a meaningless strig of letters. It requires a much higher scientific education to understand the argument made - let alone accept it.
I like the concept of ERVs as a measurement of the humongously huge probability of common descent among primates. The problem is that I've yet to find an authoritative statement of the statistical likelihood that two primates could share the same ERV in the same location along with the likely number of instances of shared ERVs.

Theoretically multiplying the probability of the same ERV in the same location by the number of shared ERVs should produce a number so big that coincidence is virtually impossible.

OB
 
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Occams Barber

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But this aside, I cleared up what my OP was referring to in terms of evolution. My view will never be the scientific view of evolution, because I know the origin of the universe already. #61
This is another instance of the lack of understanding I've been talking about.

Evolution has nothing to do with the "origin of the universe". Evolution refers to the change in life forms over time.

If you want to talk about the origins of the universe the topic is related to Big Bang Theory - not Evolution.

OB
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This is another instance of the lack of understanding I've been talking about.

Evolution has nothing to do with the "origin of the universe". Evolution refers to the change in life forms over time.
Yep.
If you want to talk about the origins of the universe the topic is related to Big Bang Theory - not Evolution.

OB

Just say "cosmology." And if people don't know what that is, they can look it up. It's what they should be doing anyway.
 
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