Did Jesus Christ Die for Everyone

[ricg]

probably that's silly question:
in the end what's a difference between saying that Jesus died for sins of those who believe in Him, and saying that He died for all sins, but only those who believe in Him are saved?
Or does this second way of think give "more chances" for some who is not christian?

Dear Duskiness,

Thank you for your response. In a way, I understand what you are saying. If I stand condemned on the last day, what difference does it make?

Ed makes some good points, and the most important is perhaps that we are simply not at liberty to say that Jesus didn't die for all when Scripture clearly reveals that He did, even if that is an intellectually unsatisfactory result, or contradicts our ideas about the nature of God. Scripture reveals what God intended us to know. It is not our role to change it.

Aside from that, it seems important to make clear that our salvation depends on an act that occurred outside ourselves. When you read the outreach forum, you often encounter people who are plagued by doubts of their own unworthiness, or who are worried about their ability to believe -- they seek assurance. The irony is that Scripture would have them stop focusing on their own ability to believe or not, i.e., to stop focusing on their own strengths and weaknesses, whether they doubt too much or don't believe enough, whether they have to feel something -- in short, on self, and rather to shift focus on the fact that they have been forgiven because of an historic event, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sin, no matter who they are or think they are, and it has nothing to do with them. At that point, an enormous weight and obstacle to faith is removed. That is what the church should be preaching. Not an examination of whether God has chosen me to be damned, which encourages self doubt and self examination. For those plagued with doubt, who know they are sinners. It's not about self at all. Ignore self -- focus on the crucified.

That's why I think it important.

 

[Melethiel]

I'd be in favor. I'm at somewhat more ease if it's true they can post here. I thought maybe they couldn't even post.

They can only post here if [OPEN] is in the thread title. It's a software thing.

 

[Edial]

Did Jesus Christ Die for Everyone?


Yes.


Wanna make it even MORE difficult?
Does God desire all to be saved? Yes.
Does God alone bring about saving faith? Yes.
Does God choose - before all creation, who will be saved? Yes.
Are the means of grace effective for all? Yes.
If someone doesn't believe, is that God's will and choice? No.
If someone doesn't believe, is God the reason? No.

I believe - SOLI DEO GLORIA!
The rest of this involves divine mysteries not altogether understood by us - and best left that way.

Very well put, Josh.

We can only understand what is written.

To go beyond that assumes we know more than is written.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[duskiness]

thank you for all your answers!

one more question: when we say that Jesus died for all, do you think that there could be some hope for nonchristians?

yes,i know...:there is no salvation without Him, but...
i'm coming from "atheistic" family, all my dearest and nearest don't share my faith...
I'm just simply looking for hope!

 

[BigNorsk]

If we got to the end of time and God saved each and every person from the clutches of Satan, I think that would be just the best joke on Satan.

But as much as I might like it, that doesn't seem consistent with scripture.

Everyone doesn't get to the same place, it doesn't say anywhere that one must be some perfect person to be save so we never really know if someone is lost. About the only thing I am pretty certain of is there will be surprises in heaven.

Marv

 

[LilLamb219]

one more question: when we say that Jesus died for all, do you think that there could be some hope for nonchristians?

yes,i know...:there is no salvation without Him, but...
i'm coming from "atheistic" family, all my dearest and nearest don't share my faith...
I'm just simply looking for hope!

Your family doesn't currently share your faith, but perhaps they could be faithful in the future. Don't give up on the effectiveness of the Gospel to bring your family to faith just yet. Don't push the Gospel on them, of course, but don't ever give up inviting them to church and being able to answer any questions they may have concerning Christianity.

 

[Jim47]

thank you for all your answers!

one more question: when we say that Jesus died for all, do you think that there could be some hope for nonchristians?

yes,i know...:there is no salvation without Him, but...
i'm coming from "atheistic" family, all my dearest and nearest don't share my faith...
I'm just simply looking for hope!

I am in the same place as you, with members of my family who have rejected God's ways and Jesus as their Savior. They have done this because they have justified there sin in their own hearts instsead of repenting and asking for forgiveness. How little The Lord asks of us:Repentance and to seek Him And yet many would rather go their own way and ignore their destiny.

There are two sets of sripture that I believe best answer this, I'm sure you are aware of them both. As LilLamb said, never give up in witnessing to them, One of the best ways is to share scripture with them, just a verse or two here and there. It isn't our witness them brings about the change of heart and turning to God, its hearing God's Word, but we are instrumental in this as God lets us share wih Him the joy of bringing someone to faith.

I've talked with my Pastor about what I should do, perhaps you should do the same?



The Rich Man and Lazarus
Lk 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
Lk 16:20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
Lk 16:21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Lk 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Lk 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Lk 16:25 "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Lk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Lk 16:27 "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house,
Lk 16:28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Lk 16:29 "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
Lk 16:30 " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
Lk 16:31 "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "





Jn 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Jn 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jn 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.



22:2-14 Ref—;Lk 14:16-24
Mt 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying:
Mt 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.
Mt 22:3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
Mt 22:4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
Mt 22:5 "But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business.
Mt 22:6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them.
Mt 22:7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
Mt 22:8 "Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come.
Mt 22:9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’
Mt 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
Mt 22:11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
Mt 22:12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
Mt 22:13 "Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Mt 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

 

[TheMadEvangelical]

I agree that this is the very gospel that is being staked here. That Christ beat sin is an accomplished fact. It doesn't rest on us to conquor it. Therefore, whether one be arminian or calvinist, either error in atonement trouble our assurance of salvation.

The Lutheran view weaves this althrough out that it affects our particular doctrines on predestination, election, word and sacraments etc.

I think the best comments on this come from the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord (Election):

38]..This consolation would be entirely taken from us if we were not to infer the will of God towards us from the call which is made through the Word and through the Sacraments. 39] There would also be overthrown and taken from us the foundation that the Holy Ghost wishes certainly to be present with the Word preached, heard, considered, and to be efficacious and operate through it.


And also (more to the point of election than atonement):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91] Accordingly, if any one presents the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot derive comfort from it, but are thereby incited to despair, or that the impenitent are confirmed in their wantonness, it is undoubtedly sure and true that such a doctrine is taught, not according to the Word and will of God, but according to [the blind judgment of human] reason and the instigation of the devil. ​

[/FONT]
But the whole chapter is great:
http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-sd/election.html

 

[Edial]

...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91] Accordingly, if any one presents the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot derive comfort from it, but are thereby incited to despair, or that the impenitent are confirmed in their wantonness, it is undoubtedly sure and true that such a doctrine is taught, not according to the Word and will of God, but according to [the blind judgment of human] reason and the instigation of the devil. [/FONT]​

...

Ha! Very good!
Very wise statement.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

thank you for all your answers!

one more question: when we say that Jesus died for all, do you think that there could be some hope for nonchristians?

yes,i know...:there is no salvation without Him, but...
i'm coming from "atheistic" family, all my dearest and nearest don't share my faith...
I'm just simply looking for hope!

A hope? There is plenty of hope.

2 part action.

1. As LiLamb219 said, present the gospel, invite to church, but do not push.

2. They are looking AT YOU. If the life of duskiness is refelecting the gospel, they'll see.

Also, look at these words that Jesus ...
REV 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

(Hades is the place where people that do not know Jesus go after death).

Ultimately, people would need to reject him "to his face" in order not to be saved.

We do not know what happens at the point of death.
.
JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, ...

Salvation is a delicate and complex process that takes time.
God often uses others through whom people are saved.

If your burden is for them, apply both points ... and pray.

Also, if they truly love you, they will be drawn to what you love.

Thanks,
Ed