Did Jesus Christ Die for Everyone

[ricg]

The outreach to non-Christians forum has a thread by this title currently running on it, and it has attracted significant interest judging from the number of views (over 700, even though it's only three pages long).

I attempted to answer the question, but there are some posters, evidently believers in limited atonement, who are sending other messages and seem to be "putting words into my mouth" and those of others. In any event, I just posted again to make clear what I said while trying to avoid a "debate."

It's a bit of a frustrating forum, because it's tough for an inquirer to get clear answers, I fear, and because, for good reason, one isn't allowed to debate there. In any event, I invited inquirers to post here to get a non-double predestination perspective (though I didn't use those words, because I didn't want to be putting words in someone else's mouth!).

Anyway, I thought I'd post this thread in case I get any takers and also to make TC members aware of the discussion in the other forum in case they want to post here (or there) or think I got it wrong.

Ricg

 

[Calminaion]

John 3:16 clearly states that Jesus Christ died so that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life.

That doesn't mean everyone will go to Heaven. It means everyone has the opportunity to go, provided they believe in Him.

 

[Jim47]

Of coure Jesus died for all. The difficulty of posting in that forum is that every deniminaion posts there and of course their beiefs are not orthodox, and the fact that the forum doesn not allow debate maes it harder to get out the truth, for most of these people will reach out what looks best to them and something they have control over.

So, what you must do is present the gospil in a way that is truthful and yet appealing which is that Jesus paid te price in full without and merit or worthiness on part and it given to s purely by God's grace.

Be careful to direct your posts only the OP and do not mention anyone elses views whether right or wrong.


Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Calminaion]

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

All this has proven is what Jesus Christ's death did for Christians--those who believe. It doesn't prove that Jesus died for everyone, unless of course you're trying to say that He died so that all would have the opportunity to accept His free gift of salvation.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

It absolutely breaks my heart when the Gospel is twisted and torn, mutilated and ripped apart such that unbelievers might be encouraged to wallow in their unbelief. Lord have mercy on those that have done this wicked thing.

As an Orthodox Christian, many days at noon (should be every day but some days I forget) I pray:

O Christ our God, who at this hour didst stretch out thy loving arms upon the cross, that ALL men might be gathered unto thee, help us and save us who cry out unto thee: Glory to thee, O Lord.

On this topic the Lutherans and the Orthodox (and the Latin church and just about everyone but Calvinists?) all share the same understanding. The Church has always believed Christ died for ALL. The prayers of the Church, the patristic writings, all provide a collective witness that this is what the Church understood the Scriptures to be teaching since the beginning of Christianity.

 

[ricg]

Be careful to direct your posts only the OP and do not mention anyone elses views whether right or wrong.

That was where I must have gone wrong. My original post was to the OP, but I also later responded to a criticism of it (and other posts) and to the reply to my response.

The verses I used were in 1 Tim 2:

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior, v.4. who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth. v.5. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, v.6. who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[RegularGuy]

1[SIZE=+0] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [/SIZE]2[SIZE=+0] and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]whole [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]world. 1 John 2.1-2[/SIZE]


This is what I'm banking on.

 

[ricg]

It absolutely breaks my heart when the Gospel is twisted and torn, mutilated and ripped apart such that unbelievers might be encouraged to wallow in their unbelief.

That's what gets me, too. I know the other fellow did not mean to do harm and is only writing as he sees it, but how much harm is done by telling dying souls that Jesus may not have died for them?

 

[ByzantineDixie]

That's what gets me, too. I know the other fellow did not mean to do harm and is only writing as he sees it, but how much harm is done by telling dying souls that Jesus may not have died for them?

You are right, I am certain the other fellow didn't mean harm either. It's a good reminder for all of us to be careful of what we proclaim in the name of the Lord.

 

[LilLamb219]

The uncertainty of whether Jesus died for them is what Satan revels in and keeps pushing to keep people from the truth. Scriptures say with all certainty that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world as RegularGuy quoted. The Gospel is true whether people believe it or not. Of course, not believing it is how man damns himself.

 

[Edial]

The outreach to non-Christians forum has a thread by this title currently running on it, and it has attracted significant interest judging from the number of views (over 700, even though it's only three pages long).

I attempted to answer the question, but there are some posters, evidently believers in limited atonement, who are sending other messages and seem to be "putting words into my mouth" and those of others. In any event, I just posted again to make clear what I said while trying to avoid a "debate."

It's a bit of a frustrating forum, because it's tough for an inquirer to get clear answers, I fear, and because, for good reason, one isn't allowed to debate there. In any event, I invited inquirers to post here to get a non-double predestination perspective (though I didn't use those words, because I didn't want to be putting words in someone else's mouth!).

Anyway, I thought I'd post this thread in case I get any takers and also to make TC members aware of the discussion in the other forum in case they want to post here (or there) or think I got it wrong.

Ricg

Where is that thread?

Thanks, Ed

 

[Edial]

Where is that thread?

Thanks, Ed

Got it.

 

[ricg]

All this has proven is what Jesus Christ's death did for Christians--those who believe. It doesn't prove that Jesus died for everyone, unless of course you're trying to say that He died so that all would have the opportunity to accept His free gift of salvation.

Dear Calminaion,

Thank you for responding. I write to clarify that while we do believe that Jesus died for everyone, as the passages Regular Guy and I quoted above make clear, we do acknowledge that faithful reliance on God's promise of salvation already won by Jesus is necessary to benefit from it. As L'lamb stated, we also acknowledge that such faith is itself given to us by the Holy Spirit. We are monergists, but that does not mean that Jesus didn't die for all.

I'm also responding because I understand -- to my dismay -- that non-christians cannot post here. I hope any who are lurking here get a view of the Lutheran understanding of the Scriptures on these points. The point is that Christians are to rely on God alone for salvation. It is an objective fact that Jesus died to pay for your sins and obtain forgiveness on your behalf, independent of whether you believe it or not. Rely on Him.

To my Lutheran brethern: is my understanding correct that non-Christians cannot post here? Can we agree to change that? I'm happy to discuss topics other Christians raise, but wouldn't it be good to be able to here from those who, while not Christians (or at least who self identify themselves that way on these fora), have questions specifically for Lutherans? While it's fine that we monitor the "outreach" fora, we're not exactly as free to answer there as here.

I note in passing that the original thread with the same name as this one on the outreach forum appears to have been removed.

Ricg

 

[Jim47]

ricg

To my Lutheran brethern: is my understanding correct that non-Christians cannot post here? Can we agree to change that? I'm happy to discuss topics other Christians raise, but wouldn't it be good to be able to here from those who, while not Christians (or at least who self identify themselves that way on these fora), have questions specifically for Lutherans? While it's fine that we monitor the "outreach" fora, we're not exactly as free to answer there as here.

I note in passing that the original thread with the same name as this one on the outreach forum appears to have been removed.

Ricg

The forum rules do not allow for non Christians to debate here, but they are allowed to come here and ask all of the questions they want, in fact we encourage it. One more thing you can do, is to to "Suggest new forums"
http://www.christianforums.com/f395-suggest-new-forums.html

Make a post there explaining what you want and why and then start a thread here so that we can support it. It would have to be a special sub forum with slightly different rules. But you can also welcome those via PM that you want to witness to in our exhisiting forum.

PM me if I can help.

 

[duskiness]

probably that's silly question:
in the end what's a difference between saying that Jesus died for sins of those who believe in Him, and saying that He died for all sins, but only those who believe in Him are saved?
Or does this second way of think give "more chances" for some who is not christian?

 

[Edial]

probably that's silly question:
in the end what's a difference between saying that Jesus died for sin of those who believe in Him, and saying that Him died for all sins, but only those who believe in Him are saved?
Or does this second way of think give "more chances" for some who is not christian?

This is a good question.

You are correct, salvation is reflected in one's personal relationship with God and not theology.

My personal objection to Calvinism (Limited Atonement), is that I see TOO MANY examples of people getting really confused and questioning whether it is God's will for him/her to be saved, since he might not have died specifically for him/her.

Also, advanced Calvinists (Piper and so forth) are plainly stating that if one believes that Christ died for ALL he believes in a "different Gospel", or "a new Gospel".
They are careful not to say "another Gospel".
This is a declaration of war upon all of a Christianity by the Calvinists. Strong statement? Sober statement.

Limited Atonement divides the Christendom and dictates "theology" instead of the Bible - and theology is a dangerous ground.
When some start saying that "it does not really say what is written" - RUN.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Melethiel]

To my Lutheran brethern: is my understanding correct that non-Christians cannot post here? Can we agree to change that? I'm happy to discuss topics other Christians raise, but wouldn't it be good to be able to here from those who, while not Christians (or at least who self identify themselves that way on these fora), have questions specifically for Lutherans?

Some other congregational forums have an [OPEN] thread for non-Christians to ask questions. One can be started here if you wish.

 

[ricg]

Some other congregational forums have an [OPEN] thread for non-Christians to ask questions. One can be started here if you wish.

I'd be in favor. I'm at somewhat more ease if it's true they can post here. I thought maybe they couldn't even post.

 

[LilLamb219]

probably that's silly question:
in the end what's a difference between saying that Jesus died for sins of those who believe in Him, and saying that He died for all sins, but only those who believe in Him are saved?
Or does this second way of think give "more chances" for some who is not christian?

Both of those statements can either be taken in the correct way or the wrong way. Not that THAT helps you any. Sorry.

Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the world, past, present and future. Whether or not we believe does not negate the fact that it is truth.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Did Jesus Christ Die for Everyone?


Yes.


Wanna make it even MORE difficult?
Does God desire all to be saved? Yes.
Does God alone bring about saving faith? Yes.
Does God choose - before all creation, who will be saved? Yes.
Are the means of grace effective for all? Yes.
If someone doesn't believe, is that God's will and choice? No.
If someone doesn't believe, is God the reason? No.

I believe - SOLI DEO GLORIA!
The rest of this involves divine mysteries not altogether understood by us - and best left that way.