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Hetta

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For some reason women think they need to keep trying to be youthful, both in looks and attitude, in order to remain attractive. Contrary to popular belief, aging gracefully and being your age can be very attractive and wonderful. Compare Jane Seymour to Joan Rivers: which one looks and acts more natural?

Also, Demi should have known hooking up with a guy like Ashton would lead to trouble. Seriously, did anyone not see this coming?
When you see Jane Seymour on tv or a photo, do you truly believe she hasn't had any "work" done? I saw her on tv lately advertizing some jewelry and I laughed out loud. She is 61 and wrinkle free! You have to know - I really seriously hope you know - that this is an impossibility. I doubt there is a woman under 35 in Hollywood who hasn't had some tightening, lifting, sculpting, injecting (collagen/botox), etc. They get it done younger and younger now, to lengthen their acting career. There is no "aging gracefully" in Hollywood. You age - you don't get roles, or you just get mom roles.

I am glad I am not a movie actress and can actually age "gracefully" - or at least slowly - with a little help from my hairdresser, dermatologist, and various make-up and creams.
 
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hijklmnop

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For some reason women think they need to keep trying to be youthful, both in looks and attitude, in order to remain attractive. Contrary to popular belief, aging gracefully and being your age can be very attractive and wonderful. Compare Jane Seymour to Joan Rivers: which one looks and acts more natural?

Also, Demi should have known hooking up with a guy like Ashton would lead to trouble. Seriously, did anyone not see this coming?

For some reason?? Women aren't creatures from another planet; can you honestly not look at our society and deduce why it might be that some women find aging difficult and scary?
 
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DZoolander

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For some reason?? Women aren't creatures from another planet; can you honestly not look at our society and deduce why it might be that some women find aging difficult and scary?

Because - as common wisdom would have it - women are "unfairly" judged solely upon their looks - or that a woman's looks defines them in a way that is different than what a man experiences.

Contrary to popular opinion, though, I'd argue that being judged on your looks is a universal thing that both men and women experience - women no more severely than men. I'd also argue that women are just as "superficial" as men are in that respect (if in fact not moreso) - and that 99% of the grief women get with respect to those issues comes from other women - and not men.

For example - since women love to look at popular culture as the litmus test of how there's this unfair expectation of beauty placed upon women - I'd ask you to also look at the men. How many fat, undesirable and/or non-idealized men do you see in the media? In the event you *do* see one, how is he portrayed?

Take a look at what seems to be the standard-bearer right now of what "turns women on" - that whole 50-shades-of-gray stuff. How's the guy described? Basically - ridiculously good looking with a huge dongle. Why isn't he described as a George Castanza type, with a mediocre if not small little vienna sausage down there? Because - that ain't what gets women going.

As much as women lament about what they're judged by - I'd argue that men have the same thing as part of their experience. They are judged by two things - how they look and how they can provide. Know what the fat pizza delivery man is doing on Friday night? Nothing. Why? Because he can't get a date.

...and in the event that an ugly man who happens to have a lot of money does get a date - he's facing the exact same thing that Demi Moore was facing...which is a mate that can't get past the obvious (how he looks) and is out there banging around with the Cabana boy or something.

That's just how the world works. The only difference is how people react to it.

The thing that's funny to me, however, is that it really isn't men persecuting women on these things or having these huge un-realistic expectations - but rather women subjecting other women to it. I believe that when women get dressed up - do what they do to primp themselves - etc...it's not for the man's benefit. The man only really cares about one or two things - and whether or not your shoes match your purse ain't among them. He frankly probably hasn't the slightest clue of what kind of shoes you're wearing.. He didn't see your purse. Maybe he might see the dress and how you fill it - but that's about it.

It's other women that women dress up for - because they know how they judge each other.

For all the talk about supermodels - etc - I've never known a man (and I've known some "superficial" men) that needs his woman to look like a supermodel. Rather - most men I know just want the girl to be appropriately pretty, not to have let herself go and become obese or something, and just don't want you to be sloppy. That's about it.
 
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hijklmnop

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Good points, Ezoo, but I disagree in that I DO firmly believe that women have it worse when it comes to being judged on looks and ageing. We dont even blink when hearing about a middle-aged man trading in his wife for a younger model. Just doesnt happen so often the other way around. Same with climbing the corporate ladder. There's plenty of ugly old men in positions of high power but not vice versa...IMO.
 
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DZoolander

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Could be - and could be I'm off base in how I see things...lol

But - gotta admit - if someone talks to me about some older dude "trading in his wife for a new model" - my first gut instinct is "stupid decision". I don't say that because of the moral reasons - or because it's the wrong thing ethically to do (and it is - so I'm not discounting that). I say it because he's going to experience the exact same phenomenon that Demi Moore is experiencing.

A younger "model" that hooks up with an older dude isn't (IMHO) doing it for love. You don't see middle aged fat pizza men being able to trade up for a younger model. No - you see it normally based upon the guy's ability to provide financially. In other words - you're getting a gold digger.

Just as younger dudes aren't really gonna love an aging cougar that can provide for them - a younger woman isn't really going to love some graying-hair-coming-out-of-ears middle aged guy who she's willing to subject herself to a banging with every now and then because he can buy her stuff. Rather - she's going to take what she can get - while most likely trolling around with the pool man, the gardener, or whomever else is actually closer to what she's attracted to.

I firmly believe that people won't deny themselves what they want for a sustained period of time. That woman doesn't want some older dude any more than some young guy want some aging woman. They both (like Ashton Kucher) will soon enough be banging some other person that's closer to their age and tastes.

So - the older guy experiences the same phenomenon that the older woman does in my eyes.

Now - in the business world - there's a case you can make for that...but it's weird for me to talk about the business world when I don't think that's the issue that really tugs at people's hearts. It's like when fat people talk about acceptance. They're not really talking about whether or not people like them as friends. Most fat people I know have quite a few friends. What they're talking about is the implied limitation on those relationships. What they want isn't "acceptance" in general - but rather they want acceptance in love. They don't want their condition to make it so that the moment someone sees them they go "friends only".

That's what hurts them...and I'd venture to say when women talk about looks...what they're talking about is being "desired". Perhaps you can throw career stuff in there - but in my opinion - it's incidental. What resonates with them is the same thing that is reeking havoc on Demi Moore. What reeks havoc on them is that they aren't desired by as many people any more - and the number is dwindling as the years go by until eventually they're the matriarch that isn't really looked at sexually by anyone except for their husband.

For some reason - that seems to bother women far more than it does men. Like - I'm 42. I do pretty well when it comes to being a 42 year old guy. Were I single again - I could probably still attract a few people. But - I've got no delusion that the numbers I could attract are quickly evaporating as the years go by - and the reasons they're attracted to me are changing.

When I'm 50 - I doubt anyone will be looking at me and going "hubba hubba" and having that sort of visceral reaction that I could have evoked when I was in my mid 20's or early 30's...and ya know...I'm cool with that. I'm not on the market. Were I on the market - I think I've got other things that I could offer (then, and now). Life changes.

But - seems women don't have that same attitude...and I think that's unfortunate for them...because I don't think it's based in reality.

I can't speak for other people - but I *can* speak for myself. As I get older - the women I find attractive progressively gets older as well.

When I was in the 5th grade, my first crush was on a 5th grade girl.
When I was in Jr. High - I liked Jr. High girls.
When I was in HS - I liked HS girls.
When I was in college - I liked college girls (and perhaps 12th grade girls...lol)
When I was in my 20's, I liked girls in their 20's.
When I was in my 30's, I liked girls in their late 20's and 30's.
Were I single now at 42, my tastes would be in the 30's and 40's.

So - with that pattern - I'm sure my tastes will continue to "age" as I age.

At 42 - if I talk to a HS girl - I find them to be unbearable to talk to. Same thing goes with most college girls (they're either vapid - or else they take themselves WAYYYY too seriously without the maturity to back up such a serious attitude in life). I work with a couple of mid 20's girls - and ya know - there's *no* common ground. They can't even remember Clinton, really. They certainly don't remember the formative stuff from my youth like "I want my mTV"...etc.

So - for me to put myself in a position where I think about what some guy must be thinking when he "trades up to a younger model" with THAT kind of age disparity - I'm left thinking "what the hell?" - and see him voluntarily walking into a world of Demi-Moore-esque hurt.

So - same phenomenon - both sexes.
 
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hijklmnop

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Maybe the discrepancy i'm trying to describe is that in our society, women are more likely to try and find their power in their ability to land a good man. Typically, youth and beauty are required. Men, historically, are more likely to find their power in their accomplishments/success. As more doors of opportunity open for women, that can start to change, but I still think there's a big lag.
 
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DZoolander

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Well, my advice to any woman in that situation would be...

"A 42 year old doesn't need to look like a 24 year old to land a man appropriate for her age group. Rather - evaluate those around you - and try to be the best you can be for where you are. Never just let yourself go (at any age). Don't be obese. Keep yourself clean. Do what you can with your hair...and be graceful at whatever age you are. Never be slovenly and don't be frumpy.

That in mind - you'll do fine.

Don't worry about whether or not some 24 year old wants to get you naked. Most likely, he doesn't, and that's cool. Worry about whether or not those that are appropriate for you find you attractive. Most likely, if you take care of yourself, they will."
 
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Verve

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I hope you aren't referring to me. I'm neither.

I think he was...but I can see how your post could be construed that way.

He was just trying to say that women, as well as men, need to know that aging naturally is fine. He gave the best example of someone in Hollywood who has stated that they are proud of their wrinkles. Then he gets attacked for standing up for natural aging.

It really was a low cut to argue with someone who is pro-natural aging like that.
 
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Verve

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How did I attack him? And how do you know what another poster meant?

Because I'm very familiar with his stance on this issue...

Lunar Boulevard: A Message for the Ladies: You're Already Amazing

Anyways I wasnt arguing his "pro natural aging" stance, I was expressing surprise that anyone else would BE surprised or puzzled that some women are afraid to age naturally in our society. No need for anyone to take that personally.

Yes, but he does feel it's unnecessary and has spent a lot of time trying to remind women that they are beautiful without surgeries, diets, makeup...the whole ball of wax.
 
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Avniel

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Because I'm very familiar with his stance on this issue...

Lunar Boulevard: A Message for the Ladies: You're Already Amazing



Yes, but he does feel it's unnecessary and has spent a lot of time trying to remind women that they are beautiful without surgeries, diets, makeup...the whole ball of wax.

It kind of is a surprise to me also i just never have had the chance to meet women that are so insecure. People get old and I think there is beauty in any phase of life. Most women i encounter at least have reached that level I have rarely encountered women that fear wrinkles. Obesity yes, to much make up, surgeries and balls of wax(don't even no what's that's for)not really.
 
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DZoolander

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Well, I think there's a fine line that a lot of people miss in these types of discussions.

For example - I would never be a proponent of any of those faddish "diets" that people go on. However - there seems to be something in our culture that if you say you're opposed to "diets" - that means that everything should be fair game (meaning - eat whatever you want - be slovenly and obese - etc). Nothing could be further from the truth in my eyes.

To say you're opposed to "diets" to me means that you're opposed to ill-thought-out, short-term-by-necessity, most-likely-unhealthy short term bouts of neurosis brought on by insecurity about the consequences of bad decisions you've made with respect to how you handle your body. If you adopt a proper diet filled with fruits and vegetables and aren't eating a bunch of crap, most likely you'll never need to "diet". So - being opposed to "dieting" doesn't mean that you think that obesity is a natural and/or acceptable state within life.

When I hear people talking about aging gracefully, etc...what I envision is people that are doing the best with what they have and being conscientious about it. It certainly doesn't mean "anything goes - and it's all equal".
 
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mkgal1

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Because I'm very familiar with his stance on this issue...

Lunar Boulevard: A Message for the Ladies: You're Already Amazing



Yes, but he does feel it's unnecessary and has spent a lot of time trying to remind women that they are beautiful without surgeries, diets, makeup...the whole ball of wax.

He gave the best example of someone in Hollywood who has stated that they are proud of their wrinkles. Then he gets attacked for standing up for natural aging.

That's wonderful.....and it may benefit you (being married to him)....but, it's (his opinion about aging, I mean) probably not going to be much of an offset to people like Demi or any other actress that is at the mercy of an industry that doesn't have the same opinion as Thunder does.

And who has stated they are "proud of their wrinkles"? Neither Jayne Seymour or Joan Rivers *have* wrinkles (and we all know that Joan Rivers is hardly aging naturally).
 
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DZoolander

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I just dunno if I buy that. I think that women take the natural expectation of doing the best you can do with your circumstance - and turn it into something it isn't.

Like - if you look at Martha Stewart. She's an attractive older lady. By no means is she a "minx" - at least not in the "Demi-Moore-I'm-Going-Crazy-Cuz-I'm-Getting-Older" way. She's an attractive older lady, for an older lady.

Same thing goes with a LOT of older women.

The social pressure women face, as well as men, is "don't be a slovenly, frumpy old coot. Don't let yourself go and be haggardly."

That's it - in and of itself. So long as you abide by that...man or woman...I think you'll do just fine.

How that somehow gets morphed into "you need to be sexually desirable by EVERYONE...including teenage guys and/or guys in their 20's" makes absolutely no sense to me...and let's be clear. That's what we're talking about. What drives Demi Moore crazy is the fact that at nearly 50 - most likely young guys are no longer fantasizing about her.

And ya know - for the women out there if you're beset with these kinds of worries - it's OK if some people (especially young people) no longer find you a sexually appealing individual. You've got a screw loose if you think society has that expectation of you.

Once again - all society really expects is that you're not the obese hausfrau in a lark rolling through WalMart with a scowl on your face and an ice cream stain on your sweatshirt. Take care of yourself - eat properly - be active - and you'll do just fine.
 
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