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Did God program the universe then start it running?

durangodawood

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A branch falls from a tree during a windstorm and crushes a squirrel. Not planned by anyone.
Not planned.

But how is it random? I mean the wind has a cause. The branch was weak for some physical reason. The squirrel was there for some reason when it saw the acorn under the tree. These events all had their reasons to happen at that time.
 
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Tayla

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Not planned.

But how is it random? I mean the wind has a cause. The branch was weak for some physical reason. The squirrel was there for some reason when it saw the acorn under the tree. These events all had their reasons to happen at that time.
The squirrel didn't plan to get crushed. For him, it was random. Bad luck. Not caused by an act of will.
 
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durangodawood

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The squirrel didn't plan to get crushed. For him, it was random. Bad luck. Not caused by an act of will.
For him in his ignorance of things it seemed random.

Thats doesnt mean it was random.

Whether or not your own will is involved is not any kind of test for randomness.
 
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Tayla

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Not planned.

But how is it random? I mean the wind has a cause. The branch was weak for some physical reason. The squirrel was there for some reason when it saw the acorn under the tree. These events all had their reasons to happen at that time.
You are forgetting about the quantum mechanics wavefunction collapse that resulted in an atom appearing just where it did to trigger the subsequent events leading to the branch falling. The location of that atom was totally random; as in, not determined, not planned.
 
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durangodawood

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You are forgetting about the quantum mechanics wavefunction collapse that resulted in an atom appearing just where it did to trigger the subsequent events leading to the branch falling. The location of that atom was totally random; as in, not determined, not planned.
Could be. More likely the branch collapsed as a result of macro scale events not triggered by any particular atomic behavior
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You are forgetting about the quantum mechanics wavefunction collapse that resulted in an atom appearing just where it did to trigger the subsequent events leading to the branch falling. The location of that atom was totally random; as in, not determined, not planned.
Not totally random, stochastic. The wavefunction is a probability density function that typically has only a few significant peaks of likelihood.

There's even a good chance (pun intended) that wavefunction evolution remains unitary and doesn't actually collapse but that the wavefunctions of observer and observed merge into a greater superposition so that the 'lottery effect' applies; i.e. all outcomes occur, and observer instances in the superposition each observe a particular outcome according to the wavefunction probability distribution, giving the appearance of a stochastic event. This is how the 'Many Worlds' interpretation of QM describes it, without requiring ad-hoc wavefunction collapse (which is not part of the quantum formalism).

However, at the scale of macro phenomena, quantum indeterminacy 'averages out' to near-as-dammit classical deterministic behaviour (if it didn't, the world would be a very weird place even at the macro scale).
 
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Tayla

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More likely the branch collapsed as a result of macro scale events not triggered by any particular atomic behavior
Everything that happens is at the atomic level (the electrostatic forces between electrons and protons which bind molecules together) in which quantum mechanics rules.
 
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durangodawood

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Everything that happens is at the atomic level (the electrostatic forces between electrons and protons which bind molecules together) in which quantum mechanics rules.
Events happen at all levels, not just the one you prefer to focus on. QM randomness likely doesnt cause the fall of the branch.

The cause is most likely macro factors like overall strength of the whole branch vs. intensity of the storm
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Everything that happens is at the atomic level (the electrostatic forces between electrons and protons which bind molecules together) in which quantum mechanics rules.
That's true, but as Ken Wilson proved back in the '80s, it is not necessary to understand the behaviours of underlying levels when dealing with properties at a higher level of abstraction, as they have their own emergent laws of behaviour that encapsulate the bulk activities of the lower levels; so you don't need to know the details of quantum mechanics to do basic chemistry, nor chemistry to do biology, nor biology to do sociology, and so-on.
 
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Ophiolite

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(if it didn't, the world would be a very weird place even at the macro scale).
I sometimes wonder if this could explain the bizarre beliefs and inane posts of a small select band of members. :)
 
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