Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
I.........................................couldn't.....................................know...........................................the............................................answer................................to.......................................that..........................................human................................question.

How COULD I?

I asked 3 questions. Which of those 3 are you responding to?

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

Tone said:
I believe that, through faith, we have an option. That is why the concept of faith is so crucial to salvation.

Ok, we have an option.

Back to the question: Do we or do we not have the option to do something different from what God foreknows we will do?

2PhiloVoid · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
I asked 3 questions. Which of those 3 are you responding to?

Just the one in your OP title since it seems the rest is derivative of that one.

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

bling said:
For God there is no: “going to choose” and it really means for God the same as “what you chose”.

You talk about “going to time T”, but God is not “going” anywhere, since He is already there.

Once again, your point that you think God is timeless is coming through loud and clear. There is no need to endless repeat that point.

Again the question is about you, not about a timeless God. You are not timeless. You go through time one second at a time, just like we all do.

When you got to the point in time where you decided whether to click the button to first come on this thread, could you or could you not have done something different from what the timeless God knows happens at that point in time?

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Just the one in your OP title since it seems the rest is derivative of that one.

Ah, so you don't know if God knew you were going to read this thread.

That's odd. Lots of people here think God knew that, but you say it is humanly impossible to know if God knew that. Interesting.

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
Ok, we have an option.

Back to the question: Do we or do we not have the option to do something different from what God foreknows we will do?

We do, so long as He grants us the gift of faith.

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

Tone said:
Luke 7:9
"9When Jesus heard this, He was amazed at the centurion. Turning to the crowd following Him, He said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith!”

Matthew 15:28
"28“O woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour."

Good point, the above verses indicate that our faith can pleasantly surprise Him!

Whenever Defining words in the Bible we must always use the Hebrew, or the Greek Definitions for those words, otherwise we can misunderstand what was being said in a Verse.

Below, the Definition for the word (Marveled) used in the KJV taken from the Strong's Concordance.

MARVELED:GREEK
G2296
θαυμάζω
thaumazō
thou-mad'-zo
From G2295; to wonder; by implication to admire: - admire, have in admiration, marvel, wonder.

G2295
θαῦμα
thauma
thou'-mah
Apparently from a form of G2300; wonder (properly concrete; but by implication abstract): - admiration.

G2300
θεάομαι
theaomai
theh-ah'-om-ahee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, that is, (by implication) to perceive (literally or figuratively); by extension to visit: - behold, look (upon), see.

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Whenever Defining words in the Bible we must always use the Hebrew, or the Greek Definitions for those words, otherwise we can misunderstand what was being said in a Verse.

Below, the Definition for the word (Marveled) used in the KJV taken from the Strong's Concordance.

MARVELED:GREEK
G2296
θαυμάζω
thaumazō
thou-mad'-zo
From G2295; to wonder; by implication to admire: - admire, have in admiration, marvel, wonder.

G2295
θαῦμα
thauma
thou'-mah
Apparently from a form of G2300; wonder (properly concrete; but by implication abstract): - admiration.

G2300
θεάομαι
theaomai
theh-ah'-om-ahee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, that is, (by implication) to perceive (literally or figuratively); by extension to visit: - behold, look (upon), see.

Yeah...and?

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
That part is coming through loud and clear--You think God is timeless and knows your future choices as though they were history. There is no need to endlessly repeat that.

Whenever a TRUTH is spoken to a person without understanding, it is needful for the person making said statement to repeat it over and over in the hopes that the person lacking understanding would grasp the validity of what has been spoken.

Now all you need to do it accept the statement made for the truth is actually is and move on.

Your question was nonsensical in the first place, not knowing anything about God, the question arose out of ignorance.

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

Tone said:
Yeah...and?

The point was, your definition was that Jesus was surprised by the Centurions answer.

HE was not surprised but held him in admiration, as noted by the remainder of what Jesus said about him.

Whenever we substitute a Secular English Definition for a Greek or Hebrew word found in the Bible we will miss the actual understanding of what is being said.

That's all.

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Another argument that human choices cannot be known by God is the power to create. Maybe God created humans as fellow creators, and humans create by making choices - choices that not even God knows in advance. Then we humans will be creating things that surprise God.

Maybe you should give the Definition of (Free Will) as you understand it to be,
(Mainly because Free Will is never mentioned in the Bible) because the answers you are getting, do not seem to fit what you believe to be the correct Definition as you perceive it.

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

JIMINZ said:
The point was, your definition was that Jesus was surprised by the Centurions answer.

HE was not surprised but held him in admiration, as noted by the remainder of what Jesus said about him.

Whenever we substitute a Secular English Definition for a Greek or Hebrew word found in the Bible we will miss the actual understanding of what is being said.

That's all.

I didn't define anything, I pointed to the exclamation marks at the end of the sentence. The Messiah was and Yah is capable of being genuinely pleased when we exercise our faith, so much so that He exclaims and shows delight.

My point stands.

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
It is a simple question. Can you or can you not do X given Y? What is nonsensical about that?

In your Hypothetical Universe, what do (X and Y) represent?

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

Tone said:
I didn't define anything, I pointed to the exclamation marks at the end of the sentence. The Messiah was and Yah is capable of being genuinely pleased when we exercise our faith, so much so that He exclaims and shows delight.

My point stands.

You used the word (SURPRISED) as though God did not know beforehand what the person thought or was going to express.

Maybe you should use the KJV, because it does not have an Exclamation Point but only a Period.

bling · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
Once again, your point that you think God is timeless is coming through loud and clear. There is no need to endless repeat that point.

Again the question is about you, not about a timeless God. You are not timeless. You go through time one second at a time, just like we all do.

When you got to the point in time where you decided whether to click the button to first come on this thread, could you or could you not have done something different from what the timeless God knows happens at that point in time?

When I decided to click the button I could have decided not to click the button, as soon as I did click the button, God then knew what choice I made and provided that information to Himself way before I clicked the button, so God knew before I clicked the button that I would (because I did) click the button.

cloudyday2 · Jun 20, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Maybe you should give the Definition of (Free Will) as you understand it to be,
(Mainly because Free Will is never mentioned in the Bible) because the answers you are getting, do not seem to fit what you believe to be the correct Definition as you perceive it.

I'm reposting this chess game analogy. Freewill in the chess game is the ability for the player to choose among more than one legal move in a way that nobody can predict including God. (If there is only one legal move available in a turn, then that is not freewill. An example might be a knee-jerk reflex to the doctor's mallet.)

Here is the chess game analogy:
- The game of chess constrains/limits the movements of pieces according to rules.
- Each player can choose from any of those allowed movements each turn.
- Neither player knows for certain what the other player will choose.
- A good chess player can know as the game progresses that checkmate is inevitable within N moves.
- Even when checkmate is inevitable there is often uncertainty about those final moves.
- A good chess player competing against a bad chess player can still lose if the bad chess player makes smart moves through dumb luck.

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

JIMINZ said:
You used the word (SURPRISED) as though God did not know beforehand what the person thought or was going to express.

Maybe you should use the KJV, because it does not have an Exclamation Point but only a Period.

Maybe you have to look past the letter...and see beyond.

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

Tone said:
Maybe you have to look past the letter...and see beyond.

OK

Francis Drake · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.

But if God did not know, how can he be all knowing?

Complete nonsense.
God dwells outside of time, therefore knows the end from the beginning, without having to subvert our freewill.

JIMINZ · Jun 20, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I'm reposting this chess game analogy. Freewill in the chess game is the ability for the player to choose among more than one legal move in a way that nobody can predict including God.

You have predetermined the outcome of your question before you asked it by qualifying it with ("That nobody can predict including God.")

Therefore, your question is based upon a false premise, which negates any answer given other than what you have already Predetermined.

Therefore your very well thought out question, is not a question at all, it is nothing more than a riddle without a solution.

Your Chess Game analogy is not correct, a good Chess player is able to not only know the move of a given opponent will make, but is also able to force the move he wants his opponent to make in order to win the game.

cloudyday2 said:
(If there is only one legal move available in a turn, then that is not freewill. An example might be a knee-jerk reflex to the doctor's mallet.)

You are predetermining there is only ONE move.
Right at this point you have disqualified your question as valid, there are actually TWO moves within Free Will, they all come down to Yes or No, Accepting or Rejecting.

Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

Critically Copernican

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

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