Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

cloudyday2 · Jun 19, 2020

eleos1954 said:
well ... if one studies His Word ... it IS that way it IS ... we learn (get knowledgeable) a lot about His character and love ... His inter-action with mankind through out History ... and much is predictable and also a lot is surprising .... He reveals a lot about Himself but not everything we would like to know about Him ... and then each of us have a individual spiritual relationship with Him and many times we are surprised how He works (unpredictable) in and through our lives.

A relationship is 2-way. Yes, from our perspective, God is both predictable and unpredictable. But it must also be that way from God's perspective. God must be surprised occasionally by our behavior. Otherwise, it is like God propping-up his stuffed animals around the table for a tea party. I have nothing against stuffed animals of course. I had lots of exciting adventures as a child with my stuffed buddies. Maybe that's how it is for God, but it seems that he could do better. God could actually create beings who surprise him, and that would probably be his preference for companionship.

Tone · Jun 19, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Hmmm, I don't understand what you are saying.

Maybe this post will clarify a bit:

Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

cloudyday2 · Jun 19, 2020

I hate to post again, because my number of posts is "6666", but I guess this will make it "6667".

How about a chess game analogy?
- The game of chess constrains/limits the movements of pieces according to rules.
- Each player can choose from any of those allowed movements each turn.
- Neither player knows for certain what the other player will choose.
- A good chess player can know as the game progresses that checkmate is inevitable within N moves.
- Even when checkmate is inevitable there is often uncertainty about those final moves.
- A good chess player competing against a bad chess player can still lose if the bad chess player makes smart moves through dumb luck.

eleos1954 · Jun 19, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
A relationship is 2-way. Yes, from our perspective, God is both predictable and unpredictable. But it must also be that way from God's perspective. God must be surprised occasionally by our behavior. Otherwise, it is like God propping-up his stuffed animals around the table for a tea party. I have nothing against stuffed animals of course. I had lots of exciting adventures as a child with my stuffed buddies. Maybe that's how it is for God, but it seems that he could do better. God could actually create beings who surprise him, and that would probably be his preference for companionship.

Omniscient - God knowing everything is something He can not change about Himself.

That would be like us saying ... physically if we didn't have to have blood to sustain our life we could do better or be better physically ... we can't change that about ourself.

Maybe that's how it is for God, but it seems that he could do better. God could actually create beings who surprise him, and that would probably be his preference for companionship

This of course is your thinking .... out of ignorance and/or perhaps you just enjoy being derisive.

Keep playing with your stuff animals ... or take a serious approach to actually learning about the Lord buy studying the bible

cloudyday2 · Jun 19, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Omniscient - God knowing everything is something He can not change about Himself.

As I understand it, "omniscience" comes from Western scholastic theology and is not universally accepted by Christians.

Tone · Jun 19, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I hate to post again, because my number of posts is "6666", but I guess this will make it "6667".

How about a chess game analogy?
- The game of chess constrains/limits the movements of pieces according to rules.
- Each player can choose from any of those allowed movements each turn.
- Neither player knows for certain what the other player will choose.
- A good chess player can know as the game progresses that checkmate is inevitable within N moves.
- Even when checkmate is inevitable there is often uncertainty about those final moves.
- A good chess player competing against a bad chess player can still lose if the bad chess player makes smart moves through dumb luck.

You ever watch The Big Bang Theory sitcom? Sheldon designs a 3D chess set. Even before I saw that on the show, I thought about designing a chess set that would move up and down and diagonal...it would be like in a cube. So, as we are in time, we would be playing with every experiential dimension!

Anywho, all that to say, that even if I was able to accomplish that idea, it would not even begin to unravel the mystery of what truly exists...there are so many other dimensions...and stuff.

One thing we can be sure of concerning the Creator is that He is Love and while He dwelt among us, He showed us the Way to really love and to experience Who He Is. He laid down His life for us. This can only mean that whatever the case may be with His all knowingness--He desires to put the other first...to give deference, even to such as lowly as we...and lower still.

bling · Jun 19, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.

But if God did not know, how can he be all knowing?

If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself in anthropomorphically to humans is to show why God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. The beings in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done” it (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

cloudyday2 · Jun 19, 2020

Another argument that human choices cannot be known by God is the power to create. Maybe God created humans as fellow creators, and humans create by making choices - choices that not even God knows in advance. Then we humans will be creating things that surprise God.

Tone · Jun 19, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Another argument that human choices cannot be known by God is the power to create. Maybe God created humans as fellow creators, and humans create by making choices - choices that not even God knows in advance. Then we humans will be creating things that surprise God.

Luke 7:9
"9When Jesus heard this, He was amazed at the centurion. Turning to the crowd following Him, He said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith!”

Matthew 15:28
"28“O woman,” Jesus answered, “your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour."

Good point, the above verses indicate that our faith can pleasantly surprise Him!

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
People make decisions and choices continually. God, being outside of time, knows what you will do. He knows if you are going to change your mind. It has nothing to do with free will.

Ah, so you don't want to answer. Fine. But the question won't go away. If God already knows what you are going to do, can you or can you not do something different from that?

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

bling said:
If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself in anthropomorphically to humans is to show why God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. The beings in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done” it (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

I think your answer to the question is that God knows everything you will do, so therefore you cannot possibly do differently from what he knows. You may say you had a "choice" to click unto this thread, but in reality, you could not have done otherwise. God knew for all eternity you would click the link. When the time came, there is no way you could have done otherwise. You clicked the link.

You may claim there is a view of freewill that is compatible with not being able to do otherwise, but that seems to butcher the meaning of "freewill".

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

OK, I asked everybody else for their answer. Here is my answer.

First, I won't include God. (I have no need for that hypothesis.) I will word it a little differently: If the current state of matter and energy around me were known exactly, would it be theoretically possible to conclude what I would do, with me unable to do otherwise? Immediately we run into the problem that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle makes it impossible to know the exact state of things. Say the current state was known as well as theoretically possible. Would my future actions then be predetermined?

I tend to think not. The cumulative quantum affects would allow me to make different decisions. An exact duplicate of me in two universes might make one decision in one universe, and a different decision in another.

Or maybe not. Maybe "exact" duplicates of me would always make the same decision. In that case, I--that is, the matter and energy that I consist of--am not free to do what "I" choose.

So it may or may not be that the current state of matter and energy has predetermined everything I do from now on.

So I see it is one way or the other. Either the entire state of the universe predetermines my actions (in which case I had no freedom to choose otherwise) or the universe leaves it to chance quantum effects. I see it is one of the other. I cannot buy the convoluted arguments I see here that claim that somehow it it all cast in stone, but yet I still have a choice.

Aussie Pete · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
Ah, so you don't want to answer. Fine. But the question won't go away. If God already knows what you are going to do, can you or can you not do something different from that?

I suggest you go talk to a philosopher. Or a science teacher who believes that somewhere in universe, 2 + 2 does not equal 4 (I've heard this postulated). Your question is nonsensical. Perhaps someone who thinks nonsensically is better qualified to answer.

bling · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
I think your answer to the question is that God knows everything you will do, so therefore you cannot possibly do differently from what he knows. You may say you had a "choice" to click unto this thread, but in reality, you could not have done otherwise. God knew for all eternity you would click the link. When the time came, there is no way you could have done otherwise. You clicked the link.

You may claim there is a view of freewill that is compatible with not being able to do otherwise, but that seems to butcher the meaning of "freewill".

You obviously are not understanding: time being relative and God being outside of time is hard to grasp.

God exists throughout human time at the same time, so there really is no past or future for God, so when we talk about the future, it is only future for us and not God.

It is not that God knows what future you will chose in the future (suggesting the future, is also God’s future), but God knows the free will choices you did make in the future (it is history for God).

The reason God knows a free will choice you will make tomorrow is because you already made that choice for the God which exists at the end of time, so with God being outside of time the God at the end of time is communicating (within Himself) to the God of today which you choices you made tomorrow.

Yes, tomorrow’s choice has not been made as far as you are concerned, but has been made as far as God is concerned.

Time is totally “relative” for God and for the last 100 years now, time has been shown to be relative and nothing has even gone against the Theory of Relativity.

Think for a moment about this: If you got an actual video recording of a free will choice a man in China made one hours from now, that choice is set in history, so he cannot make any other choice, yet does that mean the choice will not be a free will choice? You cannot get in touch with him to change anything in the next hour. What you have is the history of his choice ahead of time and history does not keep the choice from being a free will choice.

The idea of a “Block Universe” is held by many non-Christian scientist, since it would explain a lot.

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I suggest you go talk to a philosopher. Or a science teacher who believes that somewhere in universe, 2 + 2 does not equal 4 (I've heard this postulated). Your question is nonsensical. Perhaps someone who thinks nonsensically is better qualified to answer.

It is a simple question. Can you or can you not do X given Y? What is nonsensical about that?

doubtingmerle · Jun 20, 2020

bling said:
It is not that God knows what future you will chose in the future (suggesting the future, is also God’s future), but God knows the free will choices you did make in the future (it is history for God).

That part is coming through loud and clear--You think God is timeless and knows your future choices as though they were history. There is no need to endlessly repeat that.

But we humans do not know the future. We go through history one second at at time. When you got to time T you had a choice between whether to click unto this thread or not. You say God already knew what you were going to choose. So that seems to imply that, if God knew it, then you had no ability to choose otherwise when you got to time T. So please answer this simple question: If God knows what you are going to do at time T, when you get to time T, do you or do you not have the option to choose something different from what God knows?

2PhiloVoid · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.

But if God did not know, how can he be all knowing?

I.........................................couldn't.....................................know...........................................the............................................answer................................to.......................................that..........................................human................................question.

How COULD I?

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
Either the entire state of the universe predetermines my actions (in which case I had no freedom to choose otherwise) or the universe leaves it to chance quantum effects. I see it is one of the other

Or it's not just some detached "state", but Personality Himself. If you have this then this would account for some mystery. Haven't you ever chosen to not take a peek at something, even though you could have? So, why wouldn't the Creator choose not to look into certain realms? This is more in line with a relational being, I would think.

Tone · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
That part is coming through loud and clear--You think God is timeless and knows your future choices as though they were history. There is no need to endlessly repeat that.

But we humans do not know the future. We go through history one second at at time. When you got to time T you had a choice between whether to click unto this thread or not. You say God already knew what you were going to choose. So that seems to imply that, if God knew it, then you had no ability to choose otherwise when you got to time T. So please answer this simple question: If God knows what you are going to do at time T, when you get to time T, do you or do you not have the option to choose something different from what God knows?

I believe that, through faith, we have an option. That is why the concept of faith is so crucial to salvation.

bling · Jun 20, 2020

doubtingmerle said:
That part is coming through loud and clear--You think God is timeless and knows your future choices as though they were history. There is no need to endlessly repeat that.

But we humans do not know the future. We go through history one second at at time. When you got to time T you had a choice between whether to click unto this thread or not. You say God already knew what you were going to choose. So that seems to imply that, if God knew it, then you had no ability to choose otherwise when you got to time T. So please answer this simple question: If God knows what you are going to do at time T, when you get to time T, do you or do you not have the option to choose something different from what God knows?

Let me help you with the phasing:

You said: “God already knew what you were going to choose”, by saying “going to choose”, suggest you have not yet chosen, but you already chose (in human future and in God’s historic past).

For God there is no: “going to choose” and it really means for God the same as “what you chose”.

You talk about “going to time T”, but God is not “going” anywhere, since He is already there.

It is not like you are making the choice a second time and thus have to make the same choice, you only make the choice once and the choice you made is the choice God knows.

Do you agree with the idea: Just because you know historically a choice made yesterday does not keep that choice from having been a free will choice? How God knows our future choices makes all the difference and can determine if the choices are free will choices or not. Knowing our choices purely historically, does not keep them from being free will choices.

Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

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