Did God forgive our debt of sin or did Jesus pay our debt of sin?

[bling]

How is it possible to both fully pay the debt off and also have God fully forgive the debt?

How is it correct for God to say “Jesus paid your debt in full and I forgave your debt in full”, or did God not say or suggest that?

Can a judge say: “I forgive your debt” and have your brother fully pay the debt and would that be fair/just?

If Christ is fully paying all human debt of sin on the cross, how many nanoseconds of time did Christ spend on the cross for just my sins and why should I think about that as being very significant?

If God is forgiving my sins after having Christ pay them off, then very little “forgiveness” is need and so “…he that is forgiven little will love little…”?

Would God show greater Love for us by forgiving all our sins and not have Christ go to the cross to pay Himself for our sins?

Justice is not served by having just “someone” pay for rebellious disobedience, since justice requires the offender to be disciplined and not some willing innocent individual?

The Bible explains a lot about justice and injustice, so the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent to “satisfy” justice does not sound right?

 

[Adstar]

God fully forgave our sins because The LORD Jesus paid the penalty / price for all our sins..

Gods justice has been served in regard to us who believe Jesus and trust in the atonement He secured for our forgiveness

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Now in dealing with these matters it is necessary first to recall what
has already been said. You must understand why it is that the Word of
the Father, so great and so high, has been made manifest in bodily
form. He has not assumed a body as proper to His own nature, far from
it, for as the Word He is without body. He has been manifested in a
human body for this reason only, out of the love and goodness of His
Father, for the salvation of us men. We will begin, then, with the
creation of the world and with God its Maker, for the first fact that
you must grasp is this: the renewal of creation has been wrought by the
Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning. There is thus no
inconsistency between creation and salvation for the One Father has
employed the same Agent for both works, effecting the salvation of the
world through the same Word Who made it in the beginning.

................................................

For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that
it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in
dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining
incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to
corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It
was by surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an
offering and sacrifice free from every stain, that He forthwith
abolished death for His human brethren by the offering of the
equivalent. For naturally, since the Word of God was above all, when He
offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the
life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required. Naturally
also, through this union of the immortal Son of God with our human
nature, all men were clothed with incorruption in the promise of the
resurrection. For the solidarity of mankind is such that, by virtue of
the Word's indwelling in a single human body, the corruption which goes
with death has lost its power over all.

On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Forgive me...

 

[SeventyOne]

The scriptures show us that only the innocent have any standing before the Father. He demonstrated that over and over again, starting with Adam and Eve, when the animals innocent of sin were slain to cover them. Since then, all the sacrifices of the innocent animals pointed to only one thing, the coming sacrifice of the only innocent man.

Don't forget, this was the plan from the beginning. He willingly inserted Himself into His creation, and forever took on the nature of the very thing that He made. Colossians 2:14 describes to us that our debt before the father was a legal debt. A person with such a debt is not the only one allowed to satisfy the debt. For example, my home mortgage is a legal debt. If someone else comes along and wants to pay off that debt, they have every right to do so. Their payment is just as viable as any payment I might make.

Likewise, our legal debt was paid by another. The difference here is that we actually have no standing before the Father to pay that debt ourselves. We don't have the proper 'currency'. It would be just as if I tried to pay off my home with bags of M&M's. They wouldn't be acceptable for payment.

People need to get used to the idea that our unpayable debt was paid by someone else who could pay it, and in the only manner acceptable, by the sacrifice of the innocent. This is not God somehow being mean or bloodthirsty. He demonstrates that only the innocent can be with Him, and we simply do not qualify on our own, and that demonstration was very dramatic and certainly catches our attention.

 

[amariselle]

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 6:23

This debt of sin had to be satisfied, and there was no amount of animal sacrifices of "good works" done by mankind that could do so. (Hebrews 10:1-23) Only the perfect sacrifice of the sinless spotless Lamb of God is sufficient to purge our sins. (John 1:29)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:14-18

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

This promised salvation through the Messiah is also foretold throughout the OT, Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 are both excellent examples of this. Jesus also confirmed that the Scriptures pointed to Him. (John 5:39)

Paul shares the Gospel of our salvation in Christ and confirms it was fulfilled according to Scripture.

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures... - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Quite simply, there is no other sacrifice for sin and no other name by which we can be saved. (Acts 4:12)

 

[bling]

God fully forgave our sins because The LORD Jesus paid the penalty / price for all our sins..

Gods justice has been served in regard to us who believe Jesus and trust in the atonement He secured for our forgiveness

Just because you "believe" this does not mean it is true, so how do you show it to be logical?
How can it be both and be just/fair?
What kind of justice system requires full payment for forgiveness and how significant is the forgiveness if it is paid in full?

 

[Dave-W]

How is it possible to both fully pay the debt off and also have God fully forgive the debt?

How is it correct for God to say “Jesus paid your debt in full and I forgave your debt in full”, or did God not say or suggest that?

Can a judge say: “I forgive your debt” and have your brother fully pay the debt and would that be fair/just?

You are thinking in too human terms.

Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
​

Many times what God does will not make sense from a merely human perspective.

The solving of the sin problem is actually done by way of covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—​

And in that covenant sins are dealt with:

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

Sins and Iniquities are not exactly the same thing. All covenants have to be inaugurated in shed blood, and HE shed His own blood to bring us into that covenant. Blood is also required for the sin problem:

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

 

[AlexDTX]

How is it possible to both fully pay the debt off and also have God fully forgive the debt?

You are confused because you see yourself as an individual instead of a corporate person. We are all Adam. Even Eve, who was named by Adam is called Adam by God in Genesis 5:2. The sins of all mankind are in Adam. It is this same thinking that underlies the writer of Hebrews that says that Levi paid tithes to Melchisdec when he was in the loins of Abraham (Hebrews 7:9 & 10). All the sins of the world were in Adam in that all mankind was in Adam. Jesus became the second Adam took all the sins of Adam upon himself so that Adam was fully punished in Christ. Your sins are forgiven because as an individual in the corporate man of Adam you had not yet committed those sins, although you had committed your own individual sins as well. When you trust in Christ, you then became part of the corporate Christ called the body of Christ, who was justified and resurrected.

How is it correct for God to say “Jesus paid your debt in full and I forgave your debt in full”, or did God not say or suggest that?

See the above answer.

Can a judge say: “I forgive your debt” and have your brother fully pay the debt and would that be fair/just?

It is true that our salvation is a legal matter, but is also an organic matter. By the legal expediency of another paying the debt we are able to enter the organic union with the Holy Spirit. It is only fair and just if the one paying the debt does so freely. In the parable of the laborers, a farmer hires people for a penny early in the morning. He sees others standing around in the afternoon and hires them for the same wage. Lastly there are some who he hires in the evening for the same wage. Those hired in the morning then assumed that they would be paid more since they worked longer, but the farmer declared he had the right to do what he wants with his own money. Those hired in the morning had agreed to the terms and had no just complaint for they got what was agreed upon. Also, the psalmist speaking of Jesus, said sacrifice and offering you did not want, but I came to do thy will. The Word agreed to do the will of the Father, so, yes, it is just and fair.

If Christ is fully paying all human debt of sin on the cross, how many nanoseconds of time did Christ spend on the cross for just my sins and why should I think about that as being very significant?

You err in thinking of your self. As I said in the first question, He paid for all the sins of the world in Adam, and you were in Adam, when that was done.

If God is forgiving my sins after having Christ pay them off, then very little “forgiveness” is need and so “…he that is forgiven little will love little…”?

Loving much refers to us in what we did before salvation. It is the individual gratitude we all have. Those who do not think they did much wrong will still keep an attitude of self justification, and have less love than those who know they did much wrong, yet were forgiven nonetheless.

But quantity of sin is not the issue. St. Augustine in his book, Confessions, tells the story of how as a youth he stole an apple from a neighbor's tree. He admits that he was not hungry at the time, nor had any other need. Afterwards, though, when he thought about his deed, he saw the depth of his own depravity in that one act. It was an act of pure evil and total selfishness. The stolen apple did not harm the farmer, but it was Augustine's realization that to steal it was nonetheless extremely sinful. Augustine had a glimpse of the divine perspective which is perfect and holy. This is the same as God warning Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would bring his death and destruction to the entire creation. This is the same as James saying if you commit one sin you have committed them all. For once perfection is cracked, that crack spread to the rest of the perfect creation. A cracked coffee mug is ruined because it will eventually break and bacteria gets into the crack which can cause sickness to the user.

Would God show greater Love for us by forgiving all our sins and not have Christ go to the cross to pay Himself for our sins?

Love and righteousness are the same thing. Paul said when you love another you fulfill the law. Your question misunderstands forgiveness. We forgive others not because they have repented and we find it in our heart to forgive them, but because their sin is already paid for by Christ, even though they may not be Christians. We still need them to repent and bring restitution if we are to continue a relationship with them, but we can forgive them for Christ's sake. Likewise with God. He gave all mankind grace before the Mosaic law, nevertheless death reigned because the payment had not been made. God gave that grace because of the certainty of Christ's payment for sin to come. Nonetheless, none went to heaven. They remained in sheol until Christ died and rose again. This opens a different discussion about people who never hear the Gospel, of which I do not want to address now because that is irrelevant to answering the question of God's love and forgiveness.

Justice is not served by having just “someone” pay for rebellious disobedience, since justice requires the offender to be disciplined and not some willing innocent individual?

This is the reason for the incarnation. You are in Adam already. When Christ became a man, He too was in Adam. So you were in Christ already when he died on the cross since He was in Adam and you and I were in Adam, too. However, we are no longer in Adam but Christ now that we are born again. This is what being born again means. Through the resurrection, you and I were born again into Christ, and no longer Adam, for the old man was crucified with Christ.

The Bible explains a lot about justice and injustice, so the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent to “satisfy” justice does not sound right?

Correct, if the innocent was unwilling. But Jesus was willing because of his love for all mankind and for all the creation. The work of Christ goes beyond humanity, for he is the new material of the new creation to come that will never, ever sin again.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Just be careful not to fall into the trap that has God the Father angry at us. That's not Christian.

Forgive me...

 

[bling]

Now in dealing with these matters it is necessary first to recall what
has already been said. You must understand why it is that the Word of
the Father, so great and so high, has been made manifest in bodily
form. He has not assumed a body as proper to His own nature, far from
it, for as the Word He is without body. He has been manifested in a
human body for this reason only, out of the love and goodness of His
Father, for the salvation of us men. We will begin, then, with the
creation of the world and with God its Maker, for the first fact that
you must grasp is this: the renewal of creation has been wrought by the
Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning. There is thus no
inconsistency between creation and salvation for the One Father has
employed the same Agent for both works, effecting the salvation of the
world through the same Word Who made it in the beginning.

................................................

For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that
it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in
dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining
incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to
corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It
was by surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an
offering and sacrifice free from every stain, that He forthwith
abolished death for His human brethren by the offering of the
equivalent. For naturally, since the Word of God was above all, when He
offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the
life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required. Naturally
also, through this union of the immortal Son of God with our human
nature, all men were clothed with incorruption in the promise of the
resurrection. For the solidarity of mankind is such that, by virtue of
the Word's indwelling in a single human body, the corruption which goes
with death has lost its power over all.

On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Forgive me...

Atonement sacrifices in the OT could be a bag of flour, so no one felt or understood these sacrifices to be replacements for them nor were they described that way. The word "for" in scripture does not in any other place translate will to "instead of", but we cannot rely on that knowledge of that option since the small words meanings change over time and from place to place. "For" usually conveys the idea of it being "given to" you.

 

[Dave-W]

You must understand why it is that the Word of the Father, so great and so high, has been made manifest in bodily form. He has not assumed a body as proper to His own nature, far from it, for as the Word He is without body. He has been manifested in a human body for this reason only, out of the love and goodness of His Father, for the salvation of us men.

I disagree. Hebrews tells us this:

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

Yesterday = Eternity past
Forever = Eternity future

Did not the Lord God in Genesis say this?:

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;​

What "image?" What "likeness?"
Since the Father and the Spirit have neither form nor image, it had to be the image of the Son:

Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;​

This is the unchangeable Image of the Son of God. It is human-ish.

 

[Dave-W]

Just be careful not to fall into the trap that has God the Father angry at us. That's not Christian.

Indeed. A very important point.

That is nothing but a condemning lie from the devil.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I disagree. Hebrews tells us this:

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

Yesterday = Eternity past
Forever = Eternity future

Did not the Lord God in Genesis say this?:

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;​

What "image?" What "likeness?"
Since the Father and the Spirit have neither form nor image, it had to be the image of the Son:

Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;​

This is the unchangeable Image of the Son of God. It is human-ish.

You are free to disagree with St. Athanasius if you want. It is however what the EO teach.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

You are free to disagree with St. Athanasius if you want. It is however what the EO teach.

I understand.
And yes, I disagree with him.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I understand.
And yes, I disagree with him.

May I ask... do you disagree just on a point or on his whole body of works.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

May I ask... do you disagree just on a point or on his whole body of works.

He is one early church writer that I am not very familiar with, other than the Creed which bears his name. I do have a problem with that as well.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

He is one early church writer that I am not very familiar with, other than the Creed which bears his name. I do have a problem with that as well.

How about the trinity?

"He held that not only was the Son of God consubstantial with the Father, but so was the Holy Spirit..."

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

I am not sure the "sin as a debt" is all that accurate a metaphor.

"Forgiveness" we usually understand as releasing a debt; but it also means to not take into account or consideration. That ties into the more Hebraic meaning of "forget." It does not mean a clean memory wipe, but rather taking the forgiven act off the table for consideration.

 

[Adstar]

Just because you "believe" this does not mean it is true, so how do you show it to be logical?
How can it be both and be just/fair?
What kind of justice system requires full payment for forgiveness and how significant is the forgiveness if it is paid in full?

Show it to be logical ?? What by using the logic of man?? men who are faulty beings??

But lets try..
God is perfect...
God being perfect cannot accept anything to dwell with Him in His perfect eternal existence eternity that is imperfect... Because once something imperfect enters into the perfect the perfect is no longer perfect... ok?
God is perfect in justice...
Therefore a perfect God to be just must destroy or bar from His eternal existence anyone or anything that is imperfect because it would show that God is corrupt allowing a sinner to go unpunished..
How can God maintain His perfect justice and not cast each and ever human into the eternal lake of fire??
How can God JUSTLY save a sinner from the eternal lake of fire..
1) It is justice to have Mercy on the repentant...
2) It is justice when the penalty for a persons sin has been fully and justly paid by The Perfect Loving God... JESUS

So God becomes manifested in the flesh and shows His perfect Love towards His creation by willingly going to be executed on the cross to pay for the price of sin for all those who believe Jesus ( His teachings ) and trust 100% in te Atonement of Jesus to pay the fine for their transgressions against Gods will..

This is the only way that God could have overcome the problem of the fall of mankind in a Just Way.. And to those who are being saved it is an awesome thing to behold and embrace.. to some others it is a stumbling stone ( unjust or a deceptive evil teaching) to others it is foolishness.. But either way to those who hate the Atonement or those who mock the Atonement neither will receive the atonement and justice will be served upon them and they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire...

 

[Aseyesee]

How is it possible to both fully pay the debt off and also have God fully forgive the debt?

How is it correct for God to say “Jesus paid your debt in full and I forgave your debt in full”, or did God not say or suggest that?

Can a judge say: “I forgive your debt” and have your brother fully pay the debt and would that be fair/just?

If Christ is fully paying all human debt of sin on the cross, how many nanoseconds of time did Christ spend on the cross for just my sins and why should I think about that as being very significant?

If God is forgiving my sins after having Christ pay them off, then very little “forgiveness” is need and so “…he that is forgiven little will love little…”?

Would God show greater Love for us by forgiving all our sins and not have Christ go to the cross to pay Himself for our sins?

Justice is not served by having just “someone” pay for rebellious disobedience, since justice requires the offender to be disciplined and not some willing innocent individual?

The Bible explains a lot about justice and injustice, so the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent to “satisfy” justice does not sound right?

This comes under the heading of an end from the beginning.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself from the foundation of the world.