Did God create evil?

[enoch son]

911 very good, thank you very much the vers. was enlighting. I had never seen it that why before, that even evil will turn out to be good. "All things work for the good"!

 

[LynneClomina]

Lynn - I believe I misinterpreted what you wrote, as I have received a clarification from your post.

What I thought you meant was that God would have us sin so that he could prove what we don't have when He isn't there. Did you mean it that way? That God would plan for us to sin so that we would be corrected?

Jon

Romans 1:24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

since God works all things according to the purpose of His will, he must have a plan in turning them over to their sins... i assume generally its salvation???

does God need to CREATE evil? no, he just needs to "remove" Himself. does God tell us to do evil? nope. he just "leaves us to our own devices", basically. do i believe that is all part of His plan? yes. do i then claim that God has any evil in Him? nope.

hope that clarifies for ya what i believe, jon!!!

be blessed.
Lynne

 

[jons911]

Thanks Lynne... I'm so glad I asked!

Cuz I agree with you, and who knows how many debates start out with two people agreeing and not realizing it!!!

Jon

 

[Asavedo]

does God tell us to do evil?

I guess determining what "evil" is is very important. If sin (transgression of the law) is always evil, then God has certainly led individuals to do evil.

(ESV) 1Kings 22:22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”

(NAB) 1Kings 22:22 He answered, 'I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this.' 23 So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORD himself has decreed evil against you."

 

[Theophilus7]

Hi mle,

You have raised some fairly mammoth questions there! I had hoped to make a quick response and add something later. However, I have found that one thing leads to another and a somewhat more substantial treatise was called for than the two paragraphs I had planned. If you will bear with me, I will try to offer you an answer to your questions, though we will have to start with some basic ideas first.

1. THE FALLACIES OF MONISM AND DUALISM

I believe there are two basic errors which Christians need to aware of and to avoid when formulating theories about evil and the nature and will of God. They are monism and dualism.

Dualism essentially implies that there are two gods, one good and one evil. (In Christian manifestations of dualism, it is often Satan who is elevated to the position of the 'bad' god). Needless to say, scripture is totally opposed to this assertion. There is only "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Eph. 4:6). God does not share His throne with a devil.

On the other hand, monism attempts to reconcile all good and evil in the person of one all-controlling god. (Calvinism, I think, when taken to its logical conclusions, becomes a form of monism). But this is not an option either. The Bible never declares that God is evil, but that He is wholly good (1Chr. 16:34; 2Chr. 7:3; Ps. 25:8; 34:8; 52:9; 86:5; 100:5; 106:1; 118:29; 119:68; 135:3; 136:1; 143:10; Ps. 145:9; Nah. 1:7; Mat. 19:17; Lu. 18:19). "Good and upright is the LORD", declares the Psalmist (Ps. 25:8). "Your name is good" (Ps. 52:9). He is "...the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight", declares the LORD'" (Jer. 9:24). Apart from being logically impossible for God's character to be wholly good and yet evil at the same time, such a notion is contradicted by His Holiness. "Be holy", God commands, "because I, the LORD your God, am holy" (Lev. 11:44). He is "a faithful God who does no wrong" (Deut. 32:4). His people proclaim, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him". John assures us, "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all" (1Jo. 1:5).

In the light of this vast biblical testimony, we must accept that God is a good God, that He is not even a little bit evil and that everything He does is good. But we must also accept that there isn't another god out there making all the evil things happen too! There is no equal and opposite power that stands before the Almighty or sits on par with the Most High.

Hopefully you can see that there are two ditches on either side which must be avoided here, and let me warn you that although they are conceptually far apart, the road that separates them is severely double-cambred, sloping dramatically on either side. Finding the balance, then, and riding down the middle between the ditches of monism and dualism, isn't easy.

2. THE REALITY OF EVIL

One thing we cannot do, in our attempts to resolve the problem of evil, is to simply deny that evil exists. Paul affirms that our struggle is "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph. 6:12). God is a good God, but evil is still very real and at large in the cosmos.

3. THE REALITY OF GOODNESS

I think it is also necessary to make some comment on the nature of divine goodness. Granted that there is one God, that He is good, and that what men call 'evil' is not illusory but does indeed exist, some may yet attempt to incorporate evil within God's goodness. The Calvinistic doctrine of 'total depravity' affords some grounds for the claim that man is so incapable of judging what is good that what he calls 'black' may, in fact, be God's 'white', and vice versa. 'God's thoughts are higher than ours', so perhaps He does do evil.

I think this is a dangerous line of reasoning which could turn Christianity into a form of demon worship. Moreover, I find no convincing biblical basis for it. "O taste and see that the LORD is good", the Psalmist exhorts us (Ps. 34:8). "How great is your goodness, which you have stored up for those who fear you, which you bestow in the sight of men" (Ps. 31:19). God's goodness may be higher and better than ours, but only insofar as a perfect geometric circle is better than a child's attempt to draw a wheel. When God's goodness is manifested, reasonable men generally recognise and laud it.

Man, originally created in the image of God, has not become so totally depraved (ie. totally lost the image of God) that God's goodness has become opaque to his reason. He is still considered to be in God's image, as demonstrated in Gen. 9:6 and James 3:9.

4. UNDERSTANDING EVIL

But how to put all this together and make sense of it? I have already written for much longer than I intended! I shall try to be brief.

First, we need to distinguish between several kinds of 'evil'. (This is almost certainly the key to interpreting certain difficult texts which we will come to in a moment). 'Moral evil' (sin) is lawlessness committed by creatures with free will. 'Natural evil' is the disorder and decay of the universe. 'Metaphysical evil' is unintentional evil committed by creatures as a result of their finitude and clearly does not apply to an infinite God.

With regards to the first category, we are completely assured of God's moral perfection in scripture. God hates evil (Ps. 7:11; Rom. 1:18) and will not tempt anyone into doing it (Jam. 1:13). Some objections might be raised, however. If God hardens people's hearts - apparently causing them to become sinful - then He does in fact create moral evil. In reply, we must observe that God only hardens those who have already committed themselves to evil, accelerating their 'self-confirmed sinfulness' for His purposes. Pharoah hardened his own heart before God acted (Ex. 7:13-14). People have already refused to accept the truth before God sends them powerful delusions (2Th. 2:11-12). Therefore God can still hold the sinner responsible and not be accused of being unjust (Rom. 1:20). If the clay will not submit to the Potter's hand, it will be made into an ignoble vessel. God's purposes may still be accomplished despite sin or even through it.

'Natural evil', on the other hand, is connected with the Fall and God's curse (Gen. 3:17-18). God does indeed send disasters in response to sin (eg. the flood in Gen 6-8) and the Bible does not view this as in any way contrary to God's goodness (cf. Rev. 16:5-7). We can understand scriptures like Isaiah 45:7 according to this second category. In the King James text, it reads:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Is. 45:7 KJV)

This is not the most helpful of translations. The Hebrew word ra, translated evil, may also be understood in a nonmoral sense (as in Gen. 47:9 or Is. 47:11). The NASB (probably the best literal modern translation) and the NIV (probably the best idiomatic modern translation) render the verse like this:

7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Isaiah 45:7 (NASB)

7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NIV)

We have already seen that God does bring evil - that is, calamity and adversity - upon people, and that this does not contradict God's goodness or His holiness. God remains a good God and retains His moral perfection. This interpretation of Isaiah 45:7 makes good sense.

What remains to be resolved is how moral evil exists in God's universe, when He did not create it.

5. THE EXISTENCE OF EVIL

We have already seen that God did not (and does not) create evil. However, we all believe that God created everything that exists. Evil cannot have a unique existence if God made everything, but neither can God have made evil if in fact God does not create evil!

The solution to this problem lies firstly in recognising that the present state of God's creation is not the same as its original condition, and secondly in understanding that evil is actually the absence or disorder of the good. Bruce R. Marino illustrates this reality by pointing to the chemical composition of common table salt, a compound of sodium chloride. Salt is good for many purposes, but when its elements are not bound together they are both lethal! 'Like disordered salt, God's perfect creation is deadly when thrown out of balance by sin'. It is through first Satan's and then Adam's fall, both acts of free will, that all evil, including natural evil, ultimately arises.

I shall leave the reasons why God allowed this to happen for a future post. This one is long enough already!

God bless.

---
Please make sure you use the QUOTE button (bottom-right of post) if you make a response to this post. Cheers.

 

[Heinrich]

There would be no understanding of light without darkness.

 

[enoch son]

DiDo Heinrich

 

[mle]

I need time to think about some of the recent posts........thank you for your time and effort. I appreciate well thought out answers with scriptural references.

 

[LynneClomina]

Thanks Lynne... I'm so glad I asked!

Cuz I agree with you, and who knows how many debates start out with two people agreeing and not realizing it!!!

Jon

is that ever so true!!!

 

[victoryword]

Let's address The orginal passage that started this thread.

There are some that use this passage to promote a view that God created moral evil. This passage is not stating that God creates evil if you understand the context in which the word "evil" and the word "create" is being used in this passage. Because the Lord was at war with Babylon, He was letting them know that as a part of His judgement to them He would SEND calamity or trouble their way. Several versions bring this out better than the traditional KJV:

I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things. -Basic Bible In English

Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I Jehovah, doing all these things.' -YLT

I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things. -New Century Version

I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things. -New Living Testament
​

Many other versions translate the word "evil" to be disasters or calamities. God sends these things as a juidgement upon those nations like Babylon that had come against Him (see Ps. 7:14-16). This is really "sowing and reaping" on the part of Babylon. Also read Jude 1 and Gen. 6:5.

Even John Calvin, who often taught that every event in the world was the result of God's sovereign hand, did not interpret this passage as God creating evil. from His commentary we find him saying:

Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts "peace" with "evil," that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted "righteousness" with "evil," there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the "evil" of punishment, but not of the "evil" of guilt.
​

Matthew Henry, a Calvinist and Puritan himself did not see Isa 45 as God creating EVIL. In his commentary he states:

There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He make peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose.
​

I hope this helps, or at least challenges

 

[Theophilus7]

There are some that use this passage to promote a view that God created moral evil. This passage is not stating that God creates evil if you understand the context in which the word "evil" and the word "create" is being used in this passage. Because the Lord was at war with Babylon, He was letting them know that as a part of His judgement to them He would SEND calamity or trouble their way.

Yup. This view makes the most sense. We must distinguish between moral evil, natural evil and metaphysical evil.

 

[enoch son]

God didn't! Praise the Lord! He killed ALL EVIL!

 

[Blade]

I can't believe we even have to ask this question. No

 

[Jim B]

I can't believe we even have to ask this question. No

I know it sounds inane, and for a believer it is, but it is an honest question that pre-believers often ask and one that we should have an answer to so that we can give anyone who asks us a reason for the hope that is in us.

I would be interested in hearing some responses to this question.

\o/

 

[Svt4Him]

Permission to Quote:
The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.

 

[Blade]

I know it sounds inane, and for a believer it is, but it is an honest question that pre-believers often ask and one that we should have an answer to so that we can give anyone who asks us a reason for the hope that is in us.

I would be interested in hearing some responses to this question.

\o/

You know Jim, I had forgotten all about that. After a while you tend to think that everyone here are all Christians.

 

[mle]

I can't believe we even have to ask this question. No

I know it sounds inane, and for a believer it is, but it is an honest question that pre-believers often ask and one that we should have an answer to so that we can give anyone who asks us a reason for the hope that is in us.

I would be interested in hearing some responses to this question.

\o/

You know Jim, I had forgotten all about that. After a while you tend to think that everyone here are all Christians.

I am hurt by these responses. I am a Christian. I ask the question because that is what my bible said. I'm reading King James version. When I'm done doing that a couple times I will try another version. I am not as smart as many of you here and perhaps, at my young age have not been studying as long as you have. My question was from my heart. I never had any question as to whether or not Jesus died for me and lives today and will live forever in glory.
Does God want people to not ask questions and go on in ignorance?
I have been greatly helped by some of your answers. I love God very much and want to know Him. I want to know HIm, not what I think He should be or what I want HIm to be.
I think there are no dumb questions just dumb answers that do nothing to edify or exort others.

Victoryword, your post has been very helpful. Thank you

 

[Theophilus7]

I am hurt by these responses. I am a Christian. I ask the question because that is what my bible said. I'm reading King James version. When I'm done doing that a couple times I will try another version. I am not as smart as many of you here and perhaps, at my young age have not been studying as long as you have. My question was from my heart. I never had any question as to whether or not Jesus died for me and lives today and will live forever in glory.
Does God want people to not ask questions and go on in ignorance?
I have been greatly helped by some of your answers.

Don't be upset. I'm sure nobody really meant to be unkind. And as it happens, there are some theologians who do seem to think God created evil, so you were not alone in your thoughts. The verse you mentioned is a difficult passage, and many of the posts in this discussion have been quite flippant.

I love God very much and want to know Him. I want to know HIm, not what I think He should be or what I want HIm to be.

With that attitude, you will go far.

Victoryword, your post has been very helpful. Thank you

Ah yes. victoryword does his Bible homework. You will find that his posts are usually worth reading.

Don't go away from this thread feeling small, mle. You asked an honest and important question, which only a few people have really answered so far.

God bless.

 

[Svt4Him]

I think there are no dumb questions just dumb answers that do nothing to edify or exort others.

Well, here are some:

Are you sure I deserve a warning officer?
Do you not think it's about time you audit me?
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?

Oh come on, we needed a laugh...

 

[mle]

I was ready to be upset by your post too. But alas, here I am laughing. Thank you friends.