Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

Are you or any human like the Angels who do not age and do not die? No you are not.

Does a spirit/soul age and die? No it does not, at least not a human spirit. Humans have a special spirit we call a soul, special that is compared to plants and other animal spirits. As Scripture says we are made only a little lower than the angels.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have already proven the wicked are utterly consumed in the lake of fire and are dead completly. You have not offered anything that contradicts the already presented scriptures.

Sure I did. God's parable of the dead indicates people souls can suffer torment without being "utterly consumed". That same torment is what awaits that same soul in the Final Judgement AFTER that person's soul is rejoined with a body in the resurrection of ALL the dead of the human race joining the living called up at the same time for that Final Judgement.

 

[BukiRob]

Claiming a verse can only mean something and proving that the verse means what one thinks it means are not the same thing.

For me the fact we have 2 millinnium worth of Christians looking at the same verses should mean something to me, especially in light of His promise to guide those Christians in what is true, His command for those He taught to be leaders of the flock to go and teach others to be leaders and the evidence in NT also supported by the record of the first few centuries that that was exactly what occurred. They taught the truth and defended those truths against people who say otherwise. For me to take the position now that none of that matters would mean I have to reject that any of that happened, including God's promise of passing that teaching Authority to the men He put in charge of leading the Kingdom He established on earth, His Church - as in not buildings but people and including the teaching/defending of truth for those people - us (which means u too).

LOL Wow... so you want to debate what the Hebrew plainly says... Okay

 

[BukiRob]

Does a spirit/soul age and die? No it does not, at least not a human spirit. Humans have a special spirit we call a soul, special that is compared to plants and other animal spirits. As Scripture says we are made only a little lower than the angels.

You are confusing the Spirit which is the breath of life and the Soul

 

[DrBubbaLove]

LOL Wow... so you want to debate what the Hebrew plainly says... Okay

Actually not at all, since the understanding that has been given to me makes a congruent picture of "God is Good" which is in the Bible quite a few times unlike this one verse which you want to view as corrupting the notion that God is Good. As I, and many, many others now and long before me (and way smarter than me) have maintained, you cannot say God creates evil and mean that in a moral sense without corrupting the idea that God is All Good.

It may be hard for some Protestants to imagine, but people did not wake up 500 years ago and start questioning everything the Church teaches. People actually read and questioned the various teachings throughout the last 2 millennium and we have records of the more testy debates, including ones that reached high level in the Church clergy and were supported by a majority of them including Popes, which in at least one case the Spirit led a few men supporting one Bishop against a major heresy. So it is not like we have "discovered" anything new about moral truths in the last 500 years. And certainly not like someone was reading Isaiah 45 one day and suddenly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], God does do evil. People have also looked at a lot of OT verses and in an attempt to justify how THEY THINK those verses are to be literally understood along side the idea that God is Good to arrive a whole host of claims about God - including that heresy the OT God is a different God or the heresy that God changes. Just because someone reads and claims the Bible literally says something, does not mean it is true that what is meant to express matches that claim.

So I too could say WOW, you want to dispute that God is Good by claiming He does evil. Misery and distress are indeed evils, and we call clamaties "evil" because they cause misery and distress. There is no such thing as a good tornado or bad tornado. Such things are a part of the natural order of things, the way He made this world to run. A tornado results from natural atmospheric conditions required in the production and transportation of water which supports all life on earth. A tornado can and does kill people and destroy things, which is bad and why we can and people call tornadoes evil. Even heard one person describe one as "pure evil" when he looked at it. But those descriptions are expressing how a tornado makes us feel when the bad effects of us threaten us directly, and those effects can be devastating. It still does not mean a tornado is actually "evil" in a moral sense. All such things are morally neutral, but because they can cause misery and distress we tend describe them as "evil".

None the less, God certainly ALLOWS (not creates) such "evil" to exist for His own Good and Glory, which we cannot possibly see. We know He allows it because it happens and He could stop such things and perhaps does stop some of them or even directs their course of misery and destruction for His Own Purpose. He has also used them demonstratively, most notable and memorable, with what He had Moses call down on the Egyptians. We can certainly consider those events as being directed by God, but it does not mean God does evil. The tornado some see as standing before the Egyptian army all day is not evil either, it is morally neutral. If that was indeed a tornado, God is certainly shown directing it's course and He is certainly capable of doing that. But we do not have to imagine that tornado as indicating God does the opposite of what He is. It makes no logical sense to suggest the All Good creates something opposed to Good. In fact to say other wise means we must imagine God having a Will that shifts from a singular focus on All Good to looking away from that. We should not be able to support such a notion, reject it entirely as clearly God is All Good.

So if someone asks me does Isaiah 45 say God creates evil, my only answer can be yes it literally says as much, BUT it cannot be understood in any way that is opposed to the many Scriptures saying God is Good. I do not see how you can have that verse your way and not be forced to admit that God is NOT All Good if you maintain He can create that which is opposed to Himself, which the Scriptures deny repeatedly in declaring "He is Good" and actually He Alone is Good.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You are confusing the Spirit which is the breath of life and the Soul

As I said that is another discussion, start your own thread if you want to go further with that thought. But again, if I where you I would start by reading that link so that you have a true picture of what you think you know about the position opposing your own. Free tip.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have already proven the wicked are utterly consumed in the lake of fire and are dead completly. You have not offered anything that contradicts the already presented scriptures.

Actually I was replying to your false claim to someone else that you have never read that the damned went to the same place as Satan and the angels which follow Him. The exact same phrase is used for all their eternal fates. But apparently that is not what you meant to express, even though your reply reads that way.

I was not engaging in that reply a defense against the heretical notion that God in having those creatures thrown into the lake of Fire is causing them to cease to exist. But sense you brought that up again in a thread I started, do you think it is better to exist or not exist?

 

[BukiRob]

Actually not at all, since the understanding that has been given to me makes a congruent picture of "God is Good" which is in the Bible quite a few times unlike this one verse which you want to view as corrupting the notion that God is Good. As I, and many, many others now and long before me (and way smarter than me) have maintained, you cannot say God creates evil and mean that in a moral sense without corrupting the idea that God is All Good.

It may be hard for some Protestants to imagine, but people did not wake up 500 years ago and start questioning everything the Church teaches. People actually read and questioned the various teachings throughout the last 2 millennium and we have records of the more testy debates, including ones that reached high level in the Church clergy and were supported by a majority of them including Popes, which in at least one case the Spirit led a few men supporting one Bishop against a major heresy. So it is not like we have "discovered" anything new about moral truths in the last 500 years. And certainly not like someone was reading Isaiah 45 one day and suddenly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], God does do evil. People have also looked at a lot of OT verses and in an attempt to justify how THEY THINK those verses are to be literally understood along side the idea that God is Good to arrive a whole host of claims about God - including that heresy the OT God is a different God or the heresy that God changes. Just because someone reads and claims the Bible literally says something, does not mean it is true that what is meant to express matches that claim.

So I too could say WOW, you want to dispute that God is Good by claiming He does evil. Misery and distress are indeed evils, and we call clamaties "evil" because they cause misery and distress. There is no such thing as a good tornado or bad tornado. Such things are a part of the natural order of things, the way He made this world to run. A tornado results from natural atmospheric conditions required in the production and transportation of water which supports all life on earth. A tornado can and does kill people and destroy things, which is bad and why we can and people call tornadoes evil. Even heard one person describe one as "pure evil" when he looked at it. But those descriptions are expressing how a tornado makes us feel when the bad effects of us threaten us directly, and those effects can be devastating. It still does not mean a tornado is actually "evil" in a moral sense. All such things are morally neutral, but because they can cause misery and distress we tend describe them as "evil".

None the less, God certainly ALLOWS (not creates) such "evil" to exist for His own Good and Glory, which we cannot possibly see. We know He allows it because it happens and He could stop such things and perhaps does stop some of them or even directs their course of misery and destruction for His Own Purpose. He has also used them demonstratively, most notable and memorable, with what He had Moses call down on the Egyptians. We can certainly consider those events as being directed by God, but it does not mean God does evil. The tornado some see as standing before the Egyptian army all day is not evil either, it is morally neutral. If that was indeed a tornado, God is certainly shown directing it's course and He is certainly capable of doing that. But we do not have to imagine that tornado as indicating God does the opposite of what He is. It makes no logical sense to suggest the All Good creates something opposed to Good. In fact to say other wise means we must imagine God having a Will that shifts from a singular focus on All Good to looking away from that. We should not be able to support such a notion, reject it entirely as clearly God is All Good.

So if someone asks me does Isaiah 45 say God creates evil, my only answer can be yes it literally says as much, BUT it cannot be understood in any way that is opposed to the many Scriptures saying God is Good. I do not see how you can have that verse your way and not be forced to admit that God is NOT All Good if you maintain He can create that which is opposed to Himself, which the Scriptures deny repeatedly in declaring "He is Good" and actually He Alone is Good.

All of this and you have not cited one scripture that disputes what the Hebrew plainly says....

Sorry that you dont like what scripture says but it says it none the less.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

All of this and you have not cited one scripture that disputes what the Hebrew plainly says....

Sorry that you dont like what scripture says but it says it none the less.

If you want to dispute that God is Good start your own thread. There are many more Scriptures depicting that the one you want to say means God does evil, which is a thought incompatible with God is Good, which even the pagan Plato understood. I do not need to cite Scripture to know that someone suggesting Scripture says God does evil is as wrong as they can be about that verse. And in this case just as wrong that my post disputes that God creates evil as clearly indicated in that verse - what I dispute and you distort my explained position in order to mock it - is your understanding of what God creates evil means - which can only mean "God does evil" to you. That is what I dispute Is 45 means.

BTW, why do you refuse to answer my question?

 

[2KnowHim]

I believe God has a purpose for both good and evil and that purpose is to allow us to choose. God is good to allow us to choose between Himself(good) or not(evil). If we choose evil, he gives us more of it because it's what we want. If we choose Him, he gives us more of Himself. Of course he already knows who's going to choose what, but we don't which is why we must have faith in him and his plan of redemption through Jesus Christ.

So, your saying we had a choice before Jesus Christ came and gave His Life for the sin of the World, and after He came we still have a choice? Then my question to you is.....

What did Christ do then?

 

[2KnowHim]

All of this and you have not cited one scripture that disputes what the Hebrew plainly says....

Sorry that you dont like what scripture says but it says it none the less.

That's because he doesn't believe one can understand scripture without man to teach him. So when we quote scripture to him, he believes that's our interpretation of it, or our opinion. Yet when we do give our POV he won't accept that either so, really I don't know why he would purposely open a thread like this. Less to cause strife and division in the body.

We are Christians, scripture is suppose to be important to us all.

 

[2KnowHim]

But sense you brought that up again in a thread I started, do you think it is better to exist or not exist?

It is better for the evil and wickedness to be destroyed in the person through the fire rather than the person being destroyed by it.
After all that is the purpose of The Lake of Fire, and the definition of Torment in the Greek.
It is a Divine Purifying Fire.

 

[Chriliman]

So, your saying we had a choice before Jesus Christ came and gave His Life for the sin of the World, and after He came we still have a choice? Then my question to you is.....

What did Christ do then?

God sent his son to die for us and his son also chose to follow God's will and become the perfect sacrifice. In doing the will of the Father, Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth. The father draws us to Jesus and we hear and either listen and follow or ignore because we're too distracted by the trappings of this world.

God will draw everyone to himself and every knee will bow, those who have listened to Christ and followed Him will be ushered into the Kingdom like a magnificent bride. We are his reward and He is ours. At that time God the father will show his face and be our God for eternity.

The road is narrow because Jesus is the only way.

You already know all this.

 

[BukiRob]

If you want to dispute that God is Good start your own thread. There are many more Scriptures depicting that the one you want to say means God does evil, which is a thought incompatible with God is Good, which even the pagan Plato understood. I do not need to cite Scripture to know that someone suggesting Scripture says God does evil is as wrong as they can be about that verse. And in this case just as wrong that my post disputes that God creates evil as clearly indicated in that verse - what I dispute and you distort my explained position in order to mock it - is your understanding of what God creates evil means - which can only mean "God does evil" to you. That is what I dispute Is 45 means.

BTW, why do you refuse to answer my question?

ClEARLY reading comprehension is not a strong suit for you. No where did I EVER say that G-d is not good. My contention is that YOU are ignoring scripture and you dont like it that G-d doesnt fit into your tidy, neat little box that you have tried to put him in.

The verse is crystal clear weither you like it or not. I showed you the literal hebrew... you can get as mad as you want but it DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT THE TEXT ACTUALLY SAYS!

 

[Chriliman]

I think where we're getting confused is the idea of God creating evil vs God using evil. I think in both cases it can be said that God creates evil for a good purpose or that God uses evil to achieve a good end. God would never create evil just for the sake of doing something evil. The purpose of evil is good to God, but evil itself is not good in any way.

Ultimately, God has sovereignty over evil and can use it or create it as He pleases. Anything that pleases God is most certainly good.

 

[davidbenephraim]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yehovah do all these things” — Isaiah 45:7 (KJV with Hebrew name restored)

It's amazing how the Scriptures can answer our questions, don't you think?

Shalom,
David

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So, your saying we had a choice before Jesus Christ came and gave His Life for the sin of the World, and after He came we still have a choice? Then my question to you is.....

What did Christ do then?

He made it possible for mankind to be restored to the way it aught to be in our relationship with God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It is better for the evil and wickedness to be destroyed in the person through the fire rather than the person being destroyed by it.
After all that is the purpose of The Lake of Fire, and the definition of Torment in the Greek.
It is a Divine Purifying Fire.

Doesn't answer the question. Is it better to exist or not exist?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

ClEARLY reading comprehension is not a strong suit for you. No where did I EVER say that G-d is not good. My contention is that YOU are ignoring scripture and you dont like it that G-d doesnt fit into your tidy, neat little box that you have tried to put him in.

The verse is crystal clear weither you like it or not. I showed you the literal hebrew... you can get as mad as you want but it DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT THE TEXT ACTUALLY SAYS!

I never said you claimed God is not Good. I said your claim that God does evil means you cannot believe God is Good.
And you still avoid answering if you think it is better to exist or not exist?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I think where we're getting confused is the idea of God creating evil vs God using evil. I think in both cases it can be said that God creates evil for a good purpose or that God uses evil to achieve a good end. God would never create evil just for the sake of doing something evil. The purpose of evil is good to God, but evil itself is not good in any way.

Ultimately, God has sovereignty over evil and can use it or create it as He pleases. Anything that pleases God is most certainly good.

No confusion on our side. The opposing view is definitely claiming Good creates evil, which does make no sense. Some of them attempt to distinguish between Good "doing" evil and Good "creating" evil, but as yet been able to get any of them to explain the how creating something is not an action (which is what the noun "doing" describes an action).