Did God create evil?

[BukiRob]

Short answer-no
Long answer-no no no no and triple no

So in closing no God did not create evil!

Slight problem with this....

Isaiah 45:6
So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else,

7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.’

 

[BukiRob]

The wages of sin is death......Not eternal torment.

Amen... that which is dead is not alive. Like the chaff and stalk that are thrown in to the fire are consumed and all that is left is ash....

Punishment is eternal or permanent...

 

[BukiRob]

Actually annihilation would be a reprieve, a blessing compared to what awaits - which was God's point in emphasizing the eternal aspect of that fate.

The notion that God leaving the damned totally to themselves is a death and destruction for any creature made to know, love and serve Him. In the second Judgement for the damned soul, the are reunited with a human body to then continue in that death and destruction eternally, just as He said they would.

Claiming Scripture says something to us and having what we claim it says be congruent with the rest of Scriptures are not the same thing. Sadly one makes God a liar to deny the eternal torment that awaits those that will be damned immediately after this life.

There is no concept of "length" when one starts talking about eternity, so despite the denial the point is rather silly as it means one is simply trying to infer having no end to the torment of the damned equals God promise of eternal life with Him. It is not spin, unless one wants to claim Jesus was spinning it when He compared those two fates equally in terms of eternity. So that is a fail in attempting a rebuttal. Thanks for playing though.

There is a fatal flaw in the teaching of eternal torment. Man is not an immortal being.

We are spirit, body and soul. The spirit is that which animates us. It is in both man and animals that breath. When we die, that part returns to the Father in Heaven. Our soul is that which makes me uniquely who I am. My mind, will and emotion. Then there is our body our fleshly tents.

We know that the body dies and upon death starts the process of returning to the dust from which we were made.

We are told in 1 Corinthians that we obtain our eternal life from G-d. WE do not innately posses immortality it must be put on. If it is true of the believer then how much more so of the unbeliever? The unbeliever is resurrected in his corruptible body with his/her mortal soul.

The fact of the matter is that from the point of Adam upon Resurrection it will seem like he went from taking his last breath to being raised instantly. The moment the Spirit (of life that comes from the Father AKA the breath of life) leaves the body the mind shuts down and the soul becomes aware of nothing. No passage of time, no remembering, no thought.

For the unbeliever they will have drawn their last breath, death shuts down its bodily functions and the very next nanosecond you are raised. Only for the unbeliever it is to the resurrection of Judgement.

Imagine your horror. You know what has happened... you know you died.... sure you may try and convince yourself its not real, at first that is... but then you will see G-d in all of his glory, power and majesty. You will not be able to stand and you will find yourself falling to your knees and professing that he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.... it will just come out of you as naturally as breathing because you KNOW who it is you are before.

G-d's nature will be as clear to see as seeing through a clear glass window.... our poor unbeliever will hope against hope that his/her name will be found in the book... it is searched, and checked.... the name is not found.

The angels say "Father, this one's name is not found in your book of life"

You can see the fear and terror on the face of the unbeliever. A voice says cast this one into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angles who have disobeyed along with the grave and death. The unbeliever pleads for mercy. He/She does not want to be separated from G-d from whom all love, mercy and unspeakable joy is flowing....

The unbeliever screams in horror no, no, no please no.... The angles cast the unbeliever in the flaming lake.... the fire utterly consumes the person... nothing remains of them.


If this is your idea of a blessing.... man you have some serious issues... the scene I describe here is one of unspeakable horror. Particularly so when you realize that the unbeliever will know,feel and sense a total form of completeness when just in the presence of G-d... to have that ripped away knowing you will NEVER experience that again... man that is an unspeakable horror.

 

[ewq1938]

Hi ewq1938,

I'm curious how you explain this verse with your view:

Revelation 20:10
'And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'

For me the only way to interpret this verse is to say all who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This may only be referring to satan and his demons, but maybe not. What do you think?

Firstly only Satan, the beast and the false prophet are mentioned so we can't add in anyone else. Second, scripture uses intentional exaggerations compare that verse tho these:

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal because Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha is not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal. Remember that this fire isn't actual fire. The word fire is used because it's the closest way for us to have any chance to understand the destructive nature and result of this "fire".

Also, I think its a matter of perspective here in that those who are cast into the lake of fire will experience everlasting torment, meaning all goodness of God is removed from them. Those who experiencing everlasting life will be united with God and all bad things will be removed from them. So bad things will cease to exist from the perspective of the saved, but good things will cease to exist from the perspective of the unsaved.

I don't see any of that taught in scripture tho...

Also, how do you explain this verse?

Daniel 12:2
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

The wicked will be shamed and hated forever. That doesn't require them to have eternal life. Hitler is hated and will be forever but he is dead....I believe he will suffer the second death and that shame and hate towards him will continue.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Slight problem with this....

Isaiah 45:6
So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else,

7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.’

It is only a problem if one presumes God allowing the suffering resulting from natural calamties equals God creating evil. Most Christians do not agree. And the issue with suggesting Good can do evil -which like all such heresy undermines the Christian faith.
And pardon me for having to state the obvious that "creating" is an action, and verb "doing" describes an action, but we quickly get a denial that God creating evil is not the same as God doing evil.

 

[BukiRob]

It is only a problem if one presumes God allowing the suffering resulting from natural calamties equals God creating evil. Most Christians do not agree. And the issue with suggesting Good can do evil -which like all such heresy undermines the Christian faith.
And pardon me for having to state the obvious that "creating" is an action, and verb "doing" describes an action, but we quickly get a denial that God creating evil is not the same as God doing evil.

*sigh*

I dont care what most "christians" think I care what scripture says....

This is the hebrew:I form 3335 z8802 the light, 216 and create 1254 z8802 darkness: 2822 I make 6213 z8802 peace, 7965 and create 1254 z8802 evil: 7451 I x589 Yähwè יָהוֶה 3068 do 6213 z8802 all x3605 these x428 [things].


#7451 רָע ra` {rah}evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)


There is ZERO question that the word in Hebrew there is EVIL.

 

[2KnowHim]

God's Very Presence can cause all kinds of things to happen. It can cause someone to worship or it can cause someone to hide themselves from Him.

God can be an Adversary to one and to another an Advocate, depending on one's condition.
The children of Israel was not prepare to meet face to face with God, (they had to have a go between such as Moses) therefore if they even touched the mountain they would die. The man who touched the Ark of the Covenant to keep it from falling died, was it a bad thing he did? No, but he was not prepare for it. Christ is the One who prepares us to stand in the presence of a Holy God.

 

[ewq1938]

*sigh*

I dont care what most "christians" think I care what scripture says....

This is the hebrew:I form 3335 z8802 the light, 216 and create 1254 z8802 darkness: 2822 I make 6213 z8802 peace, 7965 and create 1254 z8802 evil: 7451 I x589 Yähwè יָהוֶה 3068 do 6213 z8802 all x3605 these x428 [things].


#7451 רָע ra` {rah}evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)


There is ZERO question that the word in Hebrew there is EVIL.

You are right and I can add more to this that you are free to use in the future on this subject:

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Here God says he creates evil. But what kind of evil? Literal evil or turmoil?

H7451
ra? ra^a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil or calamity" if it's in the feminine form. In the masculine form it can mean natural evil or moral evil. God is fully moral so the evil God creates is not morally evil but is known as "natural evil" which means something bad mainly from the perspective of those receiving the evil from God. Example: When God rained fire from heaven on Sodom, the people would consider that receiving evil from God because burning to death is painful. They deserved this fate so it was not morally evil to kill them in this sense.



Which form is this EVIL in in this verse?



First you go here and see the word and what form it's in.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

Then click on Isaiah 45, then scroll to verse 7.

So, it is in the masculine form meaning it can only mean evil, nothing else.

To know how to tell feminine from masculine you go here:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Four/Feminine_Nouns/feminine_nouns.html


Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And thus we know for a fact that God is stating he creates literal evil since this word is in the masculine form and can only mean literal evil.



God does create darkness, I've seen no one challenge that. I see God creating darkness in the exact same way that he creates evil.

God used light and darkness, and repeated that by using peace and evil so I see the first two being equal to the second two in comparison.

So, if someone wants to change evil into something more *easy* to swallow or accept, then they also have to change darkness by the same logic. If God can create darkness (and we know he is speaking figuratively not only literally) then He can also create literal evil in whatever form he sees fit for the need.

The other issue is light and darkness and peace are all nouns but Ra/evil is an adjective. A word such as calamity is a noun. God intentionally used an adjective as opposite of a noun when using peace vs evil. If someone tries to suggest replacing the adj of evil with a noun such as calamity they are altering what God originally intended to be used.


This is a common argument on this subject but it's flawed logic. Here God uses evil in opposition to peace, and light in opposition to darkness. It doesn't matter if we think they are not perfectly balanced. If God wanted to say calamity he would have used the feminine form or had used the Hebrew word for calamity:

Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.


H343
???
'e^yd
ade
From the same as H181 (in the sense of bending down); oppression; by implication misfortune, ruin: - calamity, destruction.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

There is a fatal flaw in the teaching of eternal torment. Man is not an immortal being.

We are spirit, body and soul. The spirit is that which animates us. It is in both man and animals that breath. When we die, that part returns to the Father in Heaven. Our soul is that which makes me uniquely who I am. My mind, will and emotion. Then there is our body our fleshly tents.

We know that the body dies and upon death starts the process of returning to the dust from which we were made.

We are told in 1 Corinthians that we obtain our eternal life from G-d. WE do not innately posses immortality it must be put on. If it is true of the believer then how much more so of the unbeliever? The unbeliever is resurrected in his corruptible body with his/her mortal soul.

The fact of the matter is that from the point of Adam upon Resurrection it will seem like he went from taking his last breath to being raised instantly. The moment the Spirit (of life that comes from the Father AKA the breath of life) leaves the body the mind shuts down and the soul becomes aware of nothing. No passage of time, no remembering, no thought.
w
For the unbeliever they will have drawn their last breath, death shuts down its bodily functions and the very next nanosecond you are raised. Only for the unbeliever it is to the resurrection of Judgement.

Imagine your horror. You know what has happened... you know you died.... sure you may try and convince yourself its not real, at first that is... but then you will see G-d in all of his glory, power and majesty. You will not be able to stand and you will find yourself falling to your knees and professing that he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.... it will just come out of you as naturally as breathing because you KNOW who it is you are before.

G-d's nature will be as clear to see as seeing through a clear glass window.... our poor unbeliever will hope against hope that his/her name will be found in the book... it is searched, and checked.... the name is not found.

The angels say "Father, this one's name is not found in your book of life"

You can see the fear and terror on the face of the unbeliever. A voice says cast this one into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angles who have disobeyed along with the grave and death. The unbeliever pleads for mercy. He/She does not want to be separated from G-d from whom all love, mercy and unspeakable joy is flowing....

The unbeliever screams in horror no, no, no please no.... The angles cast the unbeliever in the flaming lake.... the fire utterly consumes the person... nothing remains of them.


If this is your idea of a blessing.... man you have some serious issues... the scene I describe here is one of unspeakable horror. Particularly so when you realize that the unbeliever will know,feel and sense a total form of completeness when just in the presence of G-d... to have that ripped away knowing you will NEVER experience that again... man that is an unspeakable horror.

If someone wants to debate what is probably 3 millennium worth of philosophy then be my guest in another thread or start your own please. As the OP I was responding in the reply you now quote to someone bring up the immortality of our souls. You might want to prepare by researching a little before starting such a discussion as to at least what the opposing view actually is - here is decent summary:
http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/seven-proofs-for-the-natural-immortality-of-the-human-soul

Same request if you really want to debate whether our nature has three parts or just two. I will say even in a contruct of saying we have only a spirit/soul and a body - there is still room in that for the concept of who -as in person-which neither the soul or the body by themselves can fully account for.

Please do not put words in my mouth again that I did not post. What I was saying is that compared to facing an eternity as a body and soul after the Final Judgement in the same torment the soul of the damned already experiences immediately after their death & personal judgement of their life WOULD BE INFINITELY more frightening/horrible than facing a quick demise. I did not suggest people would not fear being burned alive. They would definitely fear MORE the thought of burning alive eternally without end. Not that I think burning is without any doubt an actual description of what will happen to the damned. Am satisfied knowing that burning alive pretty much describes something most of us would fear (we would have to wonder about how much fear those rare people who lack sensory pain receptors would have).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Firstly only Satan, the beast and the false prophet are mentioned so we can't add in anyone else. Second, scripture uses intentional exaggerations compare that verse tho these:






I don't see any of that taught in scripture tho...



The wicked will be shamed and hated forever. That doesn't require them to have eternal life. Hitler is hated and will be forever but he is dead....I believe he will suffer the second death and that shame and hate towards him will continue.

Please read the whole story before making such statements.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lakeoffire."

Am unsure how people in Glory, people who would only be totally eternally Happy, and completely loving, knowing and serving Good/God, could be imaging doing the opposite of Good. Not my idea of eternal Happiness.

I think we will have an awareness of what has happened to the damned, but as CS Lewis said, since they are "no more" in that nothing that could be recognized by those in Glory remains of the person any of them once knew - that it would not be possible to even think of (much less hate - which is incompatible with Joy and Love anyway) those people except perhaps some good memory of them from this life or even an awareness of the Greater Good of some evil act we might still be able to recall - all good thoughts only- at least that would jive with my concept of being eternally Happy.

 

[ewq1938]

Please read the whole story before making such statements.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lakeoffire."

I have already proven the wicked are utterly consumed in the lake of fire and are dead completly. You have not offered anything that contradicts the already presented scriptures.

 

[Chriliman]

You are right and I can add more to this that you are free to use in the future on this subject:

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Here God says he creates evil. But what kind of evil? Literal evil or turmoil?

H7451
ra? ra^a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil or calamity" if it's in the feminine form. In the masculine form it can mean natural evil or moral evil. God is fully moral so the evil God creates is not morally evil but is known as "natural evil" which means something bad mainly from the perspective of those receiving the evil from God. Example: When God rained fire from heaven on Sodom, the people would consider that receiving evil from God because burning to death is painful. They deserved this fate so it was not morally evil to kill them in this sense.



Which form is this EVIL in in this verse?



First you go here and see the word and what form it's in.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

Then click on Isaiah 45, then scroll to verse 7.

So, it is in the masculine form meaning it can only mean evil, nothing else.

To know how to tell feminine from masculine you go here:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Four/Feminine_Nouns/feminine_nouns.html


Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And thus we know for a fact that God is stating he creates literal evil since this word is in the masculine form and can only mean literal evil.



God does create darkness, I've seen no one challenge that. I see God creating darkness in the exact same way that he creates evil.

God used light and darkness, and repeated that by using peace and evil so I see the first two being equal to the second two in comparison.

So, if someone wants to change evil into something more *easy* to swallow or accept, then they also have to change darkness by the same logic. If God can create darkness (and we know he is speaking figuratively not only literally) then He can also create literal evil in whatever form he sees fit for the need.

The other issue is light and darkness and peace are all nouns but Ra/evil is an adjective. A word such as calamity is a noun. God intentionally used an adjective as opposite of a noun when using peace vs evil. If someone tries to suggest replacing the adj of evil with a noun such as calamity they are altering what God originally intended to be used.


This is a common argument on this subject but it's flawed logic. Here God uses evil in opposition to peace, and light in opposition to darkness. It doesn't matter if we think they are not perfectly balanced. If God wanted to say calamity he would have used the feminine form or had used the Hebrew word for calamity:

Deu 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.


H343
???
'e^yd
ade
From the same as H181 (in the sense of bending down); oppression; by implication misfortune, ruin: - calamity, destruction.

I believe God has a purpose for both good and evil and that purpose is to allow us to choose. God is good to allow us to choose between Himself(good) or not(evil). If we choose evil, he gives us more of it because it's what we want. If we choose Him, he gives us more of Himself. Of course he already knows who's going to choose what, but we don't which is why we must have faith in him and his plan of redemption through Jesus Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe God has a purpose for both good and evil and that purpose is to allow us to choose. God is good to allow us to choose between Himself(good) or not(evil). If we choose evil, he gives us more of it because it's what we want.

Well said. I see it similarly in that the evil God creates is not really evil from him but is interpreted by the recipients as evil and thus God creates evil, just not a moral evil according to his own morality.

 

[Chriliman]

I have already proven the wicked are utterly consumed in the lake of fire and are dead completly. You have not offered anything that contradicts the already presented scriptures.

You're implying the wicked will simply cease to exist? I don't understand how this could be considered just punishment for willingly not choosing to listen to or obey God, when the just reward for faithfully listening to and obeying God is eternal life.

I have to take this verse for what it literally says:

Daniel 12:2
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

I want everlasting life, not everlasting contempt. I know the only way to everlasting life is through Jesus Christ. I also know the way to everlasting contempt is to indulged myself in this world and ignore God.

Revelation 20:10
'And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'

I'm certain it would not say "for ever and ever", if it wasn't trying to convey a never ending state of torment. You can interpret it however you want though, but many will point this out as clearly a never ending state of torment.

We can also imply logic to further this point. Does it make sense for God to create evil and allow beings to choose evil instead of himself, to then just take those beings out of existence as if they'd never done anything wrong? If God brings something into existence and then takes it out of existence, it's as if it never existed in the first place. I think evil itself will suffer endlessly and those who desire it will also suffer endlessly. We can view God's wrath as being equally eternally destructive as God's love is eternally life giving.

 

[ewq1938]

You're implying the wicked will simply cease to exist?

Not I, the scriptures do.

I don't understand how this could be considered just punishment for willingly not choosing to listen to or obey God, when the just reward for faithfully listening to and obeying God is eternal life.

How is that possibly not just punishment? God gave life and for the wicked he takes that life away, forever.

I have to take this verse for what it literally says:

Daniel 12:2
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

It is literal but it doesn't say "the unsaved will feel shame forever because they will always be alive"

They awake to shame, and will be destroyed literally and contempt for them will be forever.

I want everlasting life, not everlasting contempt.

It's not a matter of WANT it's a matter of what is DESERVED.

Revelation 20:10

'And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'

I'm certain it would not say "for ever and ever", if it wasn't trying to convey a never ending state of torment. You can interpret it however you want though, but many will point this out as clearly a never ending state of torment.

At best it can only apply to the three that are named. But this type of exaggerated language is used often in scripture and doesn't mean forever despite saying forever. Take in that fact that many many scriptures speak of death and utter destruction for the wicked and eternal torture of people that literally live forever falls apart.

We can also imply logic to further this point. Does it make sense for God to create evil and allow beings to choose evil instead of himself, to then just take those beings out of existence as if they'd never done anything wrong?

That's broken logic because getting rid of evil people makes as much sense as getting rid of sin, evil, death and all sorts of bad things.

If God brings something into existence and then takes it out of existence, it's as if it never existed in the first place.

Wrong. It existed and was deemed unfit to live and exist forever.

I think evil itself will suffer endlessly and those who desire it will also suffer endlessly. We can view God's wrath as being equally eternally destructive as God's love is eternally life giving.

Yet you don't believe in actual destruction but alert, fully alive people being tortured forever by a "loving" God. Such a doctrine is found no where in the bible. Only that one verse says Satan and the beast and FP suffer forever and there is reason to understand it non literally as I have presented.

 

[Chriliman]

Not I, the scriptures do.




How is that possibly not just punishment? God gave life and for the wicked he takes that life away, forever.




It is literal but it doesn't say "the unsaved will feel shame forever because they will always be alive"

They awake to shame, and will be destroyed literally and contempt for them will be forever.





It's not a matter of WANT it's a matter of what is DESERVED.



At best it can only apply to the three that are named. But this type of exaggerated language is used often in scripture and doesn't mean forever despite saying forever. Take in that fact that many many scriptures speak of death and utter destruction for the wicked and eternal torture of people that literally live forever falls apart.




That's broken logic because getting rid of evil people makes as much sense as getting rid of sin, evil, death and all sorts of bad things.



Wrong. It existed and was deemed unfit to live and exist forever.



Yet you don't believe in actual destruction but alert, fully alive people being tortured forever by a "loving" God. Such a doctrine is found no where in the bible. Only that one verse says Satan and the beast and FP suffer forever and there is reason to understand it non literally as I have presented.

No man alive today can imagine the things God has in store for us who love him. This also implies that no man alive today can imagine the things God has in store for those who hate him.

We can imagine that beings who hate God will cease to exist, what we can't imagine is what their eternal state of existence will actually be like(it won't be eternal life), just like we can't imagine what eternal life is going to be like.

1 Corinthians 2:9
"However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--"

If your view is true then all atheists are correct in their belief that they will cease to exist when they die. How can an atheist be correct about anything regarding God?

Ultimately, I think we are more effective in furthering the Kingdom if we hold the correct view that God's love is eternally life giving and God's wrath is eternally life taking.

 

[ewq1938]

I prefer people to respond to each part of the entire post. Just skipping the whole thing basically means I wasted my time responding fully to you. Please go back and properly respond. I can't keep responding to what you say, point by point, if you don't in return.

No man alive today can imagine the things God has in store for us who love him. This also implies that no man alive today can imagine the things God has in store for those who hate him.

We can imagine that beings who hate God will cease to exist, what we can't imagine is what their eternal state of existence will actually be like(it won't be eternal life), just like we can't imagine what eternal life is going to be like.

1 Corinthians 2:9
"However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--"

If your view is true then all atheists are correct in their belief that they will cease to exist when they die. How can an atheist be correct about anything regarding God?

Ultimately, I think we are more effective in furthering the Kingdom if we hold the correct view that God's love is eternally life giving and God's wrath is eternally life taking.

 

[BukiRob]

You're implying the wicked will simply cease to exist? I don't understand how this could be considered just punishment for willingly not choosing to listen to or obey God, when the just reward for faithfully listening to and obeying God is eternal life.

I have to take this verse for what it literally says:

Daniel 12:2
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

I want everlasting life, not everlasting contempt. I know the only way to everlasting life is through Jesus Christ. I also know the way to everlasting contempt is to indulged myself in this world and ignore God.

Revelation 20:10
'And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'

I'm certain it would not say "for ever and ever", if it wasn't trying to convey a never ending state of torment. You can interpret it however you want though, but many will point this out as clearly a never ending state of torment.

We can also imply logic to further this point. Does it make sense for God to create evil and allow beings to choose evil instead of himself, to then just take those beings out of existence as if they'd never done anything wrong? If God brings something into existence and then takes it out of existence, it's as if it never existed in the first place. I think evil itself will suffer endlessly and those who desire it will also suffer endlessly. We can view God's wrath as being equally eternally destructive as God's love is eternally life giving.

Are you or any human like the Angels who do not age and do not die? No you are not.

 

[Chriliman]

I prefer people to respond to each part of the entire post. Just skipping the whole thing basically means I wasted my time responding fully to you. Please go back and properly respond. I can't keep responding to what you say, point by point, if you don't in return.

Sorry, I don't see responding point by point as necessary. We both fully understand each other's positions.

I'll leave you with this verse:

Psalm 103:12
"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

To me this implies that my sins will be forever in an opposite direction of me who is with God. This does not imply that God has removed my sins from existence, it implies that he has cast them very far away and that they will never effect me again for eternity. God has taken all of our sins upon himself and cast them away at the cross and overcame death through His resurrection, what he endured to achieve this is far beyond my imagination. I am forever grateful and can only love and worship Him for what He's done for me.

Honestly, I don't think we need to worry about the damned because we should take comfort in the fact that God is the true righteous judge. We should focus on loving Him and loving others as he loves us.

God bless!

 

[DrBubbaLove]

*sigh*

I dont care what most "christians" think I care what scripture says....

This is the hebrew:I form 3335 z8802 the light, 216 and create 1254 z8802 darkness: 2822 I make 6213 z8802 peace, 7965 and create 1254 z8802 evil: 7451 I x589 Yähwè יָהוֶה 3068 do 6213 z8802 all x3605 these x428 [things].


#7451 רָע ra` {rah}evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)


There is ZERO question that the word in Hebrew there is EVIL.

I have already proven the wicked are utterly consumed in the lake of fire and are dead completly. You have not offered anything that contradicts the already presented scriptures.

Claiming a verse can only mean something and proving that the verse means what one thinks it means are not the same thing.

For me the fact we have 2 millinnium worth of Christians looking at the same verses should mean something to me, especially in light of His promise to guide those Christians in what is true, His command for those He taught to be leaders of the flock to go and teach others to be leaders and the evidence in NT also supported by the record of the first few centuries that that was exactly what occurred. They taught the truth and defended those truths against people who say otherwise. For me to take the position now that none of that matters would mean I have to reject that any of that happened, including God's promise of passing that teaching Authority to the men He put in charge of leading the Kingdom He established on earth, His Church - as in not buildings but people and including the teaching/defending of truth for those people - us (which means u too).