Did God create evil?

[ewq1938]

And the fate is indeed total destruction, utter death and literally being "no more" for a creature that was meant for the opposite fate. A terrible place indeed.

Yes so annihilation is the only true understanding of the wicked's fate.

And the concept of something created good and made to know, love and serve Good having all Good removed from its presence leaves that thing utterly useless - which would totally destroy any real or potential for a meaningful existence.

Perhaps but that concept is not taught in scripture on this topic. Only death and destruction is awaiting the wicked as opposed to a horrible eternal life.

The wicked do not receive eternal life in hell fire:


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36

He isn't found! Not "put into hell to be tormented for eternity". Scripture clearly shows the wicked being destroyed.

So the use of fire consuming a damned person need not be presumed to mean "nothing remains".

Yet that's exactly how scripture uses it.

I would not call the existence I just described as equal to the promise God made to us all before His Ascension.

No one would say equal in quality but it is equal in length one lives.

So claim the orthodox life has the damned getting "eternal life" is not just false, it is absurd.

Wrong. If someone lives forever that is eternal life. Being tortured alive forever is a very negative form of eternal life but it is eternal life no matter how one tries to spin it and eternal life of any kind for the wicked is not scriptural so it is that and only that which is "false and absurd".

Orthodox in this discussion meant an accepted non-heretical view of Hell, but thanks for playing.

Orthodoxy is not always correct nor is it universally agreed upon as to what is and isn't considered Orthodox among the various denominations anyways. Only scripture is the authority on what is true or not, not just what the majority believes is true.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes so annihilation is the only true understanding of the wicked's fate.





Perhaps but that concept is not taught in scripture on this topic. Only death and destruction is awaiting the wicked as opposed to a horrible eternal life.

The wicked do not receive eternal life in hell fire:


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36

He isn't found! Not "put into hell to be tormented for eternity". Scripture clearly shows the wicked being destroyed.




Yet that's exactly how scripture uses it.



No one would say equal in quality but it is equal in length one lives.




Wrong. If someone lives forever that is eternal life. Being tortured alive forever is a very negative form of eternal life but it is eternal life no matter how one tries to spin it and eternal life of any kind for the wicked is not scriptural so it is that and only that which is "false and absurd".



Orthodoxy is not always correct nor is it universally agreed upon as to what is and isn't considered Orthodox among the various denominations anyways. Only scripture is the authority on what is true or not, not just what the majority believes is true.

Actually annihilation would be a reprieve, a blessing compared to what awaits - which was God's point in emphasizing the eternal aspect of that fate.

The notion that God leaving the damned totally to themselves is a death and destruction for any creature made to know, love and serve Him. In the second Judgement for the damned soul, the are reunited with a human body to then continue in that death and destruction eternally, just as He said they would.

Claiming Scripture says something to us and having what we claim it says be congruent with the rest of Scriptures are not the same thing. Sadly one makes God a liar to deny the eternal torment that awaits those that will be damned immediately after this life.

There is no concept of "length" when one starts talking about eternity, so despite the denial the point is rather silly as it means one is simply trying to infer having no end to the torment of the damned equals God promise of eternal life with Him. It is not spin, unless one wants to claim Jesus was spinning it when He compared those two fates equally in terms of eternity. So that is a fail in attempting a rebuttal. Thanks for playing though.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually annihilation would be a reprieve, a blessing compared to what awaits - which was God's point in emphasizing the eternal aspect of that fate.

Eternal torture is not what awaits. Man invented that to scare people into joining the church.

[/QUOTE]The notion that God leaving the damned totally to themselves is a death and destruction for any creature made to know, love and serve Him. In the second Judgement for the damned soul, the are reunited with a human body to then continue in that death and destruction eternally, just as He said they would.[/QUOTE]

Either they are dead or alive. You can only pick one choice.

Sadly one makes God a liar to deny the eternal torment that awaits those that will be damned immediately after this life.

Why is it that I posted numerous scriptures to support my view but you offer nothing?

There is no concept of "length" when one starts talking about eternity, so despite the denial the point is rather silly as it means one is simply trying to infer having no end to the torment of the damned equals God promise of eternal life with Him. It is not spin, unless one wants to claim Jesus was spinning it when He compared those two fates equally in terms of eternity. So that is a fail in attempting a rebuttal. Thanks for playing though.

Hardly. It is a fallacy to declare one the winner of anything. If people are alive in hell fire and being tortured and are aware of it and the pain and they will always be like that, then you promote an eternal life for the wicked when scripture states they will die and not be alive forever. When body and soul are destroyed and thus are dead, there is no potential for life, nor torture.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Eternal torture is not what awaits. Man invented that to scare people into joining the church.

The notion that God leaving the damned totally to themselves is a death and destruction for any creature made to know, love and serve Him. In the second Judgement for the damned soul, the are reunited with a human body to then continue in that death and destruction eternally, just as He said they would.[/QUOTE]

Either they are dead or alive. You can only pick one choice.



Why is it that I posted numerous scriptures to support my view but you offer nothing?




Hardly. It is a fallacy to declare one the winner of anything. If people are alive in hell fire and being tortured and are aware of it and the pain and they will always be like that, then you promote an eternal life for the wicked when scripture states they will die and not be alive forever. When body and soul are destroyed and thus are dead, there is no potential for life, nor torture.[/QUOTE]
I have yet to see scaring people work very well in getting anyone to stop and I have seen a lot of Protestant Churches try.

A departed soul is not alive, but they still exist as an aware person - which is what Jesus depicted in His Parable about Lazarus and the rich man.

Why would I offer something to someone who wants to abuse what has been given to us by God?

I did not declare my self a winner of anything. Google FAIL on the internet. The point in saying that was not that I had won anything, but that you had failed to make my a point by grossly distorting the orthodox view in order to attack what you had created. King of like a knight attaching windmills. Attacking a windmill is a not making a rebuttal, it is a FAIL.

 

[ewq1938]

I have yet to see scaring people work very well in getting anyone to stop and I have seen a lot of Protestant Churches try.

Because more and more people realize it is not a scriptural doctrine.

A departed soul is not alive, but they still exist as an aware person - which is what Jesus depicted in His Parable about Lazarus and the rich man.

That was in Hades. No one will survive in the lake of fire.

Why would I offer something to someone who wants to abuse what has been given to us by God?

I have scriptural evidence, you do not.

I did not declare my self a winner of anything. Google FAIL on the internet. The point in saying that was not that I had won anything, but that you had failed to make my a point by grossly distorting the orthodox view in order to attack what you had created. King of like a knight attaching windmills. Attacking a windmill is a not making a rebuttal, it is a FAIL.

That doesn't apply to anything I have posted thusfar. I have proven my position, you reject it without even commenting on the scriptures presented. Furthermore, you don't offer scripture to prove your belief, and you contradict yourself by saying they are dead yet you claim they are alive forever in torment.

These things make it easy to reject eternal torture as biblical.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Because more and more people realize it is not a scriptural doctrine.



That was in Hades. No one will survive in the lake of fire.




I have scriptural evidence, you do not.





That doesn't apply to anything I have posted thusfar. I have proven my position, you reject it without even commenting on the scriptures presented. Furthermore, you don't offer scripture to prove your belief, and you contradict yourself by saying they are dead yet you claim they are alive forever in torment.

These things make it easy to reject eternal torture as biblical.

You cannot prove your fighting another knight by attacking a windmill.

 

[ewq1938]

You cannot prove your fighting another knight by attacking a windmill.

Saying this doesn't make it have happened. Let's stick to the topic at hand. You seem to tend to avoid most of what I posted. You brought up the example of the rich man to compare it to the lake of fire but that was Hades. Will you admit your errors?

I mean, look at the other type of things you say which contradict themselves:

A departed soul is not alive, but they still exist as an aware person

Not alive but still an aware person somehow eh? Where in the bible is that found?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

'

Saying this doesn't make it have happened. Let's stick to the topic at hand. You seem to tend to avoid most of what I posted. You brought up the example of the rich man to compare it to the lake of fire but that was Hades. Will you admit your errors?

I mean, look at the other type of things you say which contradict themselves:



Not alive but still an aware person somehow eh? Where in the bible is that found?

Nope. The damned are in torment right now, I see no value in needing to understand whether that is a different "place" than the place that damned will be with a body after the Final Judgement. Could it be a different place? Sure, but what does that matter - it is torment in both places. I read and agree a good case could be made that before His Death, the Gates of Heaven were closed to humans because of the Fall of mankind. So the "realm of the dead" concept our Jewish brothers had long held before Jesus Birth is a special place were all the dead prior to His Death were held. His Death reopened Heavens gates to humans. He Himself after His Death that Friday released ONLY those souls in that realm bound for Heaven. It would be those freed souls "seen" praising His Name shortly after His Death in Jerusalem.

A human has a body and a soul. God made man to share in His Eternal Happiness. Had mankind not fell the body provided would have lasted eternally as it makes no sense to suggest makes something without giving it the ability to fulfill the purpose for which is made. And that idea fits with God removing access to that gift (most think Jesus) when mankind Fell.

That something to make us live eternally (Jesus) is not part of our nature but comes from God - His Son. Man is good, because everything God made is Good because He is Good. Yet we are free to choose evil and that is a sin. It is better to exist than to not exist, so it follows making a sentient being with the ability to remain a distinct individual person eternally is better than to not do so. It also is in line with the purpose for which God made each of us that as a person our identity retains an eternal and continuous existence - which is only possible with the concept of an immortal soul. That dignity is given in the immortality of our souls, a gift which is also fitting at having been made a little lower than the angels - who are spirits that are also eternally and continously existent-immortal.

The human body in our present state is not mortal now and can only be so if God grants that gift. So when we die, our immortal soul moves on to the next life and waits for the final Judgement to gain a body and be a whole human again. That continued existence of every dead person in the form of a soul is the only assurance we have that the person present body and soul at the Final Judgement is the same person that died and left this life.

God depicted dead souls aware in His Parable of the dead. Saint John "saw" souls aware in his vision. Some of the Apostles saw two dead people aware talking with Jesus, our Lord God. King Saul spoke with an aware dead person. Many people in Jerusalem saw dead people aware at about three o'clock Friday on the day Jesus died. Jesus told a living person facing death that he would be aware and with Him in the next life that same day. How many more examples of aware dead people does God need to give us before we accept that in some manner unfamiliar to us the departed souls of the dead are still exsting as persons and aware?

 

[ewq1938]

'
Nope. The damned are in torment right now, I see no value in needing to understand whether that is a different "place" than the place that damned will be with a body after the Final Judgement. Could it be a different place? Sure, but what does that matter - it is torment in both places.

That you do not know Hades is a different place than the lake of fire speaks volumes.

How many more examples of aware dead people does God need to give us before we accept that in some manner unfamiliar to us the departed souls of the dead are still exsting as persons and aware?

Your examples are before the lake of fire judgement. No one will survive the lake of fire, and that is it's purpose. It's the second death for a reason. You are making it no different than the first death, whether you realize that or not.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

-

That you do not know Hades is a different place than the lake of fire speaks volumes.



Your examples are before the lake of fire judgement. No one will survive the lake of fire, and that is it's purpose. It's the second death for a reason. You are making it no different than the first death, whether you realize that or not.

Note I never said I did not know something. I actually believe there could different places for several different things and if there are indeed such different places for the damned (and for fallen angles), it appears according to Saint John's vision they still all end up in the same place after the Final Judgement of all mankind only the second time the damned of the human race are in torment with both a body and a soul eternally - which is fitting since the Bible says they are all tossed body and soul there. They are also forced to bow a knee before that - which sort of requires a body to bow - not that it does them any good to bow at that point.
I still see no point belaboring the difference in locations for the damned as even if there are zillion places for the damned to visit along the way to the Final Judgement they would all involve an ending torment - just as God depicted the damned being in already as He walked this earth.

 

[Chriliman]

That you do not know Hades is a different place than the lake of fire speaks volumes.



Your examples are before the lake of fire judgement. No one will survive the lake of fire, and that is it's purpose. It's the second death for a reason. You are making it no different than the first death, whether you realize that or not.

Hi ewq1938,

I'm curious how you explain this verse with your view:

Revelation 20:10
'And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'

For me the only way to interpret this verse is to say all who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This may only be referring to satan and his demons, but maybe not. What do you think?

Also, I think its a matter of perspective here in that those who are cast into the lake of fire will experience everlasting torment, meaning all goodness of God is removed from them. Those who experiencing everlasting life will be united with God and all bad things will be removed from them. So bad things will cease to exist from the perspective of the saved, but good things will cease to exist from the perspective of the unsaved.

Also, how do you explain this verse?

Daniel 12:2
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

 

[2KnowHim]

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And there would be no purpose of someone being tormented for ever.
And in order for that to happen, someone would have to have put on incorruption, and that just can't be. A body that cannot die is exactly that.

And if God was to torment without Purpose, then how is That Righteous? But there is a solution to both of your arguments.

The destruction of the wicked is eternal anionios, not because the "process of destruction" continues forever, but because the "results are permanent". Eternal often refers to the permanence of the "RESULTS", rather than the "Continuation of the Process". It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of its "duration", but because of it's "Permanent Results". It's called Eternal Punishment, NOT Eternal Punishing.

 

[Chriliman]

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And there would be no purpose of someone being tormented for ever.
And in order for that to happen, someone would have to have put on incorruption, and that just can't be. A body that cannot die is exactly that.

And if God was to torment without Purpose, then how is That Righteous? But there is a solution to both of your arguments.

The destruction of the wicked is eternal anionios, not because the "process of destruction" continues forever, but because the "results are permanent". Eternal often refers to the permanence of the "RESULTS", rather than the "Continuation of the Process". It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of its "duration", but because of it's "Permanent Results". It's called Eternal Punishment, NOT Eternal Punishing.

We all know what pain and sorrow and hopelessness feels like. We also know these feelings cease to exist when we find peace, hope and joy in Christ Jesus. I can imagine that eternal torment is never being able to find peace hope and joy because one has been cut off from the only true source of peace hope and joy. It is a gift from God to even be able to comprehend this because it puts the correct fear of the Lord in us. A destroyed soul is no longer able to fear the Lord, but only able to find fear in everything and never able to find peace in anything.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And there would be no purpose of someone being tormented for ever.
And in order for that to happen, someone would have to have put on incorruption, and that just can't be. A body that cannot die is exactly that.

And if God was to torment without Purpose, then how is That Righteous? But there is a solution to both of your arguments.

The destruction of the wicked is eternal anionios, not because the "process of destruction" continues forever, but because the "results are permanent". Eternal often refers to the permanence of the "RESULTS", rather than the "Continuation of the Process". It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of its "duration", but because of it's "Permanent Results". It's called Eternal Punishment, NOT Eternal Punishing.

Terrible suffering exists right now and am quite certain God takes no pleasure in it. So the argument that the existence of suffering must mean anything more than God allows it for His Reasons, which can only be for the Good, should be all we can conclude from the existence of suffering - even if it is eternal.

Corruption and corruptible certainly applies to our bodies now in many ways and would not apply to the bodies of any us who make it to Glory after the Final Judgement, which would be why such people our said to LIVE as God made us to live in eternal Happiness with Him. To say otherwise would mean those people, through the corruption of sin, would be able to lose that state - and that would not agree with or should not agree with any Christians notions of Heaven.

The bodies of the damned are certainly and totally corrupt. The effect of being in eternal torment would no doubt also have to change them both physically, spiritually and mentally, just as a human experiencing great torment in this life changes both physically, spiritually and mentally. So it is not like the concept of eternal torment denies the corruption of the damned, in fact corruption is exactly what CS Lewis describes of the damned person in labeling them "what remains" of human and how they would not even be recognizable as human and certainly not as the person they were before Hell. So it is simply not true that eternal torment has the damned incorruptible. Immortal body joined with an immortal soul (which already was immortal in this life) but damned, yes. Incorruptible or in any sense "living" as a human was meant to "live"? Absolutely not.

 

[2KnowHim]

We all know what pain and sorrow and hopelessness feels like. We also know these feelings cease to exist when we find peace, hope and joy in Christ Jesus. I can imagine that eternal torment is never being able to find peace hope and joy because one has been cut off from the only true source of peace hope and joy. It is a gift from God to even be able to comprehend this because it puts the correct fear of the Lord in us. A destroyed soul is no longer able to fear the Lord, but only able to find fear in everything and never able to find peace in anything.

Then Death would never be swallowed up in Victory, ...if one person remains in this state and are tormented for all eternity as most think, then Death would still exist, and not done away with.

 

[2KnowHim]

Immortal body joined with an immortal soul (which already was immortal in this life) but damned, yes. Incorruptible or in any sense "living" as a human was meant to "live"? Absolutely not.

Sometimes you make no sense at all bubba.
Immortal is Incorruptible......you say they would have a body that would hold up to a literal lake of fire for all eternity,....how can this not be incorruptible? Humans are mortal, but what you describe as tormented forever in fire would have to have an incorruptible body, therefore they would be immortal, not capable of death.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Then Death would never be swallowed up in Victory, ...if one person remains in this state and are tormented for all eternity as most think, then Death would still exist, and not done away with.

How so?
We die because we are separated from God. That is clear from the beginning of the Bible - the very DAY they ate just as He said.
He won that Victory over our death allowing the potential for us to no longer be separated eternally from Him. But the acceptance of that gift and then the reaping of the benefit of that Victory is something He said we can only inherit from Him during this life, not during the next. And we clearly do not fully reap the benefit of such an inheritance until the next life. So the damned would be those who do not inherit the Victory during this life, that inheritance overcomes for us INDIVIDUALLY the death that separated ALL of us from Him through Adam's deed.

So the notion that the orthodox view has dying extended is not true because we are right now already dead in terms of being separated from God - with many people including some Christians much less separated in this life than others but separated none the less. The Victory over that separation is indeed already won, but not everyone stands with God on the winning side of that Victory in this life. So no, the damned continue the separation from God that they freely chose on this life, only in death it becomes a total and eternal separation rather than something that gets repeated (as in dying or death still happens). They chose their death/separation from God in this life as being what they desire, and He gives it all to them in the next life. IOW if they leave this life in that state, they have already died relative to God and their physcial death at the end of this life does not represent anything new relative to God, but it is them loosing the potential to switch sides as far as taking part in the inheritance that was won nearly 2000 years ago.

 

[2KnowHim]

Death is the state of the Carnal mind of man, to God, not physical death.
To be carnally minded is Death to God. If one person remains in this state they are considered Dead to God.
Therefore Eternal Torment is NOT a possibility.

 

[Chriliman]

Then Death would never be swallowed up in Victory, ...if one person remains in this state and are tormented for all eternity as most think, then Death would still exist, and not done away with.

I agree that when we are called to be with God in the new Jerusalem, God will have destroyed all death and sorrow.

Then Death would never be swallowed up in Victory, ...if one person remains in this state and are tormented for all eternity as most think, then Death would still exist, and not done away with.

I agree that our Lord Jesus Christ has destroyed death and those in Christ will be called into the new Jerusalem and have eternal life with God the Father.

The question is, what of those who Christ does not know?

Luke 13:24-30

24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ 28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

God would not say these things if he didn't want us to make Him the very center of everything we do. He gives us the faith to do this, but ultimately we are responsible for our actions that are not inline with Him.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Death is the state of the Carnal mind of man, to God, not physical death.
To be carnally minded is Death to God. If one person remains in this state they are considered Dead to God.
Therefore Eternal Torment is NOT a possibility.

We are spiritual AND physcial beings. That is the way God made mankind and the way we will always be (after resurrection for Final Judgement) if one believes we remain human. It is what it means to be human and He said after making man that the way we are made is Very Good. It did not stay that way(Very Good) and speaking of our carnal-ness is only one aspect of what happened to mankind the day Adam first sinned.

The point you just made about the "dead" to God person is exactly the point I made about the damned. They were dead already to God before they left this life. So in that regard the damned do not "die" to God again - they just remain that way eternally.

As to the state of a Christian, we obviously disagree in some detail and perhaps misunderstand each other as well. There is no sense I can imagine that any Christian, except someone that is in a state like Enoch or Elijah were at the end of their walk here, is ready right now in this life to walk straight into Heaven. We are not because we still sin, often badly for most of us. So in that sense, while we might be trying to face the correct direction, we stumble. Because we stumble our status with God is not as perfect as it could be and certainly not like that of Enoch or Elijah as I already mentioned. So while we can talk about not being dead to God, saints walking this life still have yet to fully inherit the benefit of the Victory He won and we are also as Christians still intact with our freewill which means we can still switch sides - to our own self destruction and with eternal consequence.

I know you disagree and espouse OSAS as well as seeing yourself fully ready to be fully in God's Presence, as in forgiven of all sin and not having sinned since last forgiven. I cannot deny that you have said so, and if true then you could and SHOULD just as Enoch and Elijah did bypass death and walk straight into Heaven. Because if true you are stating that in the absolute fulless sense, you are no longer in any way or aspect dead to God. As most of us admit to sinning, we cannot make such a claim for ourselves.