Did God create evil?

[jerry kelso]

Did you have a choice to be born into this world a sinner?
Since it is plain through scripture that All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
And since it is also plain through scripture that we were made subject to vanity "not willingly"....
And since it is also plain that it was by one man that sin entered this world and death by sin passed upon us all.
none of these things was our choice.
As in Adam All die, is that a choice? In Christ All shall be made Alive is that a choice?
When God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself.....Where were you in your choices?

2knowhim,

1. We are talking about a freewill choice to choose God through salvation of his son, Jesus Christ or to freely choose to stay in sin and the fallen nature.

2. We do not have a choice to be born into sin as David said. As Paul states it was because of the sinless Adam who was the fountainhead of the human race who sinned. We die as in Adam because that is the fruit of sin physically because God told him from the dust you came and to the dust you shall return. This was a direct judgement on Adam because of his sin and it touches the whole human race because he is the fountainhead of the human race and we are his progeny.

3. Just because we all have sinned and were conceived in sin and it wasn't our choice has nothing to do with not having the ability and the freedom to freely choose God as our Savior or freely choosing to reject him.
People confuse this because many times of their belief on predestination such as Calvin's reformed theology as in the tulip which thwarts the true belief on eternal security.

4. Reconciling the world to himself has nothing to do with everyone eventually choosing the Lord as Savior and King whether before or after one dies. There is no scripture that supports purgatory or a reconciliation period to Christ after they die. This is a misnomer from the UR doctrine. However, reconciling the world to himself has more to do with bringing the world the opportunity to become saved; for Christ died that all might have the chance to be saved not just supposedly the elect in their predestination doctrine of some do and some don't, etc.

5. In Hebrews Christ said he died for the transgressions or the sins of the first testament. This implies or gives the perception that God died for the sins of the old testament instead of all. However, we know that God died for all men according to John 3:16 and many other scriptures.
6. God actually atoned for the penalty of sins of the world past, present, and future. He did not pay for sins of each individual or certain individuals as in the eternal security doctrine. If this were true then the whole world would have been saved when Christ died. This is why the payment for sin was not like a cash transaction.

7. Christ gave his life freely and if he would have paid the debt in the cash transaction example like most think then he would have been a debtor who had to pay. Also, grace would not be valid or needed because Christ had paid the debt once and for all and the payment would have been erased forever. This is the way most people think that hold to the UES doctrine and believe you cannot ever lose your salvation and some say for any reason. The truth is that Peter backslid and had to be converted.

8. The bible says that we were bought with a price and the price was suffering on the cross to satisfy the penalty of sin. Christ made a choice to die as a the God-man for the whole wide world to show true agape love and we must choose him as Joshua said; Choose you this day whom you will serve. God will not make the church do anything it doesn't want to or the individuals that make up the church.
The bottom line in freewill choice to choose Christ as Savior and remain in his love is required by God as our responsibility in our relationship with him which is a two way street. We choose to obey and allow him to do the work in us because that is his part in our relationship. Choose agape love for without freewil choice there is no true agape love or relationship with God. Jerry Kelso

 

[2KnowHim]

The Freewill doctrine is the most destructive thing in the body today. To think that man could actually override God's will is only a testimony of the arrogance of the human nature. And to think that man in his fallen state (which is Carnal by nature and the enemy of God) could actually make a choice to repent on his own, is The most Ridiculous thing that I think I have ever heard, and makes Christ's Sacrifice void.

If we in our fallen state could choose or would choose to follow Him, then why did Christ come to die for us? Just to give us a choice? That is absurd. For without His Spirit drawing us, and then enabling us, we could not do anything.
For without Him we can do nothing, especially come to the knowledge that we even needed a Saviour.

To think that YOU chose Him, is absolutely the Personification of the fallen, arrogant Nature that is in man, and has no understanding of why He had to come and die on that cross, much less why He rose again.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

 

[2KnowHim]

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

This is the quote you are referring to? Do you really believe that you could put away all other gods without the Spirit of The Son? do you really believe you could fear The Lord and serve Him in sincerity and in Truth without The Spirit of The Son abiding in you? If you do then I stand in doubt of you, as being born again.
In fact, since you have this great ability to choose, then maybe we should all gather round you, and worship you, since most of us Know that we did not have this ability in our fallen state, and there was nothing in the preaching' s we heard of Him all our lives that caused us to repent and follow Him,.... until He, Himself called us out of Darkness, and until He, Himself enabled us to hear and see Him.

 

[2KnowHim]

6. God actually atoned for the penalty of sins of the world past, present, and future. He did not pay for sins of each individual or certain individuals as in the eternal security doctrine. If this were true then the whole world would have been saved when Christ died. This is why the payment for sin was not like a cash transaction.

If He didn't pay for the sins of each individual or certain individuals, (as you say) then what is meant by the sins of the whole world? Sin is only imputed to men in the world is it not? It's not talking about the animals or the trees or the birds or the fish etc...for all of mankind has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

I'll let you in on a little mystery ......It is Truth, Christ did die for The Whole World, and they are All Saved and were Saved when He died and rose again. We just don't yet see it...but we will.

As it is written: If I be lifted up, will draw (Drag) All unto me.
Was He lifted up....Yes.....then He did also Draw all unto Him, died, was buried and rose with them.

1Co_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Subdued:
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

 

[he-man]

As it is written: If I be lifted up, will draw (Drag) All unto me.
Was He lifted up....Yes.....then He did also Draw all unto Him, died, was buried and rose with them.

1Co_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Subdued:
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that ALL Christians who believe be saved..1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

 

[Viren]

Eating from the tree of knowledge is what causes evil. Eating is another word for believing. We believe lies and that in term causes wrong beliefs and wrong actions. It's really just a dysfunction of the human mind.

 

[RLBeers]

God did not create evil. The Bible is very direct in stating there is no evil in God at all, and the original language suggests absolute eternally unchanging perfection in about as strong a term as possible. The Bible also indicates that God is not a fan of robotic, templates responses so all of his sentient creations, angel, man, etc... were made with free will, the ability to make decisions, even if that decision is to go against God's will. The creation of evil seems to have originated from Satan after his fall from grace, and if you look at the makeup of evil, each act a perfect reverse of the opposing good, it appears evil was made as an attempt to cause the creator pain. Consider it Satan's ongoing temper tantrum. Satan's conversation with God over what happens to Job is a very good peek into that relationship.

 

[jerry kelso]

If He didn't pay for the sins of each individual or certain individuals, (as you say) then what is meant by the sins of the whole world? Sin is only imputed to men in the world is it not? It's not talking about the animals or the trees or the birds or the fish etc...for all of mankind has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

I'll let you in on a little mystery ......It is Truth, Christ did die for The Whole World, and they are All Saved and were Saved when He died and rose again. We just don't yet see it...but we will.

As it is written: If I be lifted up, will draw (Drag) All unto me.
Was He lifted up....Yes.....then He did also Draw all unto Him, died, was buried and rose with them.

1Co_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Subdued:
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

2knowhim,

1. Hebrews 9: 15 says: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. This doesn't even mention the second testament. At the same time this would not exclude the sins of those afterwards under the second testament. Interestingly enough it says by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions. Even though man was the one sinning and he has to be redeemed the phrase for the redemption of the transgressions or sins seems to imply the sin being redeemed. Not as being free like in the soul of man but the penalty of sin lifted. This would go in line with the idea of a ransom. Christ was not a substitute for man for man could never have been the sacrifice. People use the context of a substitute because they say man should have been on the cross and sacrificed and this could be true in that sense but not in the fact of being an actual substitute for it had to be the royal blood to wash away sins of the world that was the spotless lamb and the God-man who was the only one who could be the true mediator between God and man.

2. Christ did die for the whole world that they might be saved for he is not willing that any should perish. This cannot mean that all mankind was saved when he died for then there would be no sinners and no further need for reconciliation by redemption from that time on.
This is a belief that some use to prove unconditional eternal security. Calvin believed in UES but only if one repented and received salvation. UR believes that all will eventually get saved because God is reconciling them to him and it is just a matter of time. This means that there has to be a period of purgatory if the person does not get saved before they die and there would be no reason for anyone to be thrown into the lake of fire unless one believes in soul sleep.
The bible clearly says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. There is no mention of reconciliation after this for Revelation 21 begins with the new heaven and the new earth. This means that the idea of scripture that UR uses to prove everyone becoming saved is based in the wording of that scripture that is not based in the whole of context according to all scriptures based on the subject and thus is not correct in their understanding of what Christ reconciling the world to himself really means.
In Luke 16 the rich man told Abraham he had 5 brothers and wanted to testify to them so they would not go to the place of torment and Moses said they had the law and the prophets to hear and listen to but if one come back from the dead they would not be persuaded. Even if people were to have a purgatory after death I am not sure God would except their repentance because they would predicate it on the fact of merely escaping further judgement. Either way there is no such thing as a second chance for a sinner after they die.
UR can believe that will happen to every human being if they like but, it doesn't square with what the bible says across the board on the subject and its proper contexts.

3. Christ was lifted up on the cross to make the way of redemption. It is the way of the cross that leads to Jesus and he will draw all men unto him but not every man will follow him. Christ has to give everyone the chance to serve him otherwise they cannot be judged properly. Even the antediluvians knew God and had the chance to accept him and did not and would not retain him in their memory and he gave them over to a reprobate mind. Your rendering of that scripture does not stand alone in all of the understanding of the contexts in the bible as far as trying to make it a fact of everyone he draws will accept him. People will be drawn but it doesn't mean they will accept Christ and so you are using improper hermeneutics to try and support your belief which is not biblical.

4. Subordination of the Godhead has nothing to do with one being inferior of the other as many believe. It is the position of order and because of the plan of God that Jesus is subordinate or obeys God the Father and Jesus said that. There are certain things that the son does that the father doesn't do or can be. For example, Christ is at the mercy seat ever interceding and the father cannot do this for he wasn't the lamb slain for the sins of the whole world. Christ is the Savior and no one can come to the father without going through the son. Does this make the father inferior because he is not the Savior and we are not saved in his name for Paul said it is only through Jesus name one can be saved?

5. Compound unity is throughout the whole bible and subordination does not do away with it. Christ was God in the beginning when it was said, Let us make man in our image. Man was made in God's image and not the angels or any other created being. When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden God used the word us as in man had become like one of them. The body of Christ is many members and yet one body. Also, men and women have to be subject to each other. Compound unity is why there can be more than one in the Godhead and still be One God for it is oneness in unity and not in number or inferiority.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were in on everything from creation and before and God is order in its perfect sense which is compound unity and not the inferiority and subordination doctrine of the Christadelphians and other similar beliefs. Jerry Kelso

 

[Doveaman]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

What's your take on this?

"I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- (Isa 45:7).

By the way, Universal Reconciliation is biblical:

"He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together...For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven...All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." -- (Col 1:17-20, 2 Cor 5:18-19)

 

[2KnowHim]

2knowhim,

1. Hebrews 9: 15 says: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. This doesn't even mention the second testament. At the same time this would not exclude the sins of those afterwards under the second testament. Interestingly enough it says by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions. Even though man was the one sinning and he has to be redeemed the phrase for the redemption of the transgressions or sins seems to imply the sin being redeemed. Not as being free like in the soul of man but the penalty of sin lifted. This would go in line with the idea of a ransom. Christ was not a substitute for man for man could never have been the sacrifice. People use the context of a substitute because they say man should have been on the cross and sacrificed and this could be true in that sense but not in the fact of being an actual substitute for it had to be the royal blood to wash away sins of the world that was the spotless lamb and the God-man who was the only one who could be the true mediator between God and man.

2. Christ did die for the whole world that they might be saved for he is not willing that any should perish. This cannot mean that all mankind was saved when he died for then there would be no sinners and no further need for reconciliation by redemption from that time on.
This is a belief that some use to prove unconditional eternal security. Calvin believed in UES but only if one repented and received salvation. UR believes that all will eventually get saved because God is reconciling them to him and it is just a matter of time. This means that there has to be a period of purgatory if the person does not get saved before they die and there would be no reason for anyone to be thrown into the lake of fire unless one believes in soul sleep.
The bible clearly says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. There is no mention of reconciliation after this for Revelation 21 begins with the new heaven and the new earth. This means that the idea of scripture that UR uses to prove everyone becoming saved is based in the wording of that scripture that is not based in the whole of context according to all scriptures based on the subject and thus is not correct in their understanding of what Christ reconciling the world to himself really means.
In Luke 16 the rich man told Abraham he had 5 brothers and wanted to testify to them so they would not go to the place of torment and Moses said they had the law and the prophets to hear and listen to but if one come back from the dead they would not be persuaded. Even if people were to have a purgatory after death I am not sure God would except their repentance because they would predicate it on the fact of merely escaping further judgement. Either way there is no such thing as a second chance for a sinner after they die.
UR can believe that will happen to every human being if they like but, it doesn't square with what the bible says across the board on the subject and its proper contexts.

3. Christ was lifted up on the cross to make the way of redemption. It is the way of the cross that leads to Jesus and he will draw all men unto him but not every man will follow him. Christ has to give everyone the chance to serve him otherwise they cannot be judged properly. Even the antediluvians knew God and had the chance to accept him and did not and would not retain him in their memory and he gave them over to a reprobate mind. Your rendering of that scripture does not stand alone in all of the understanding of the contexts in the bible as far as trying to make it a fact of everyone he draws will accept him. People will be drawn but it doesn't mean they will accept Christ and so you are using improper hermeneutics to try and support your belief which is not biblical.

4. Subordination of the Godhead has nothing to do with one being inferior of the other as many believe. It is the position of order and because of the plan of God that Jesus is subordinate or obeys God the Father and Jesus said that. There are certain things that the son does that the father doesn't do or can be. For example, Christ is at the mercy seat ever interceding and the father cannot do this for he wasn't the lamb slain for the sins of the whole world. Christ is the Savior and no one can come to the father without going through the son. Does this make the father inferior because he is not the Savior and we are not saved in his name for Paul said it is only through Jesus name one can be saved?

5. Compound unity is throughout the whole bible and subordination does not do away with it. Christ was God in the beginning when it was said, Let us make man in our image. Man was made in God's image and not the angels or any other created being. When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden God used the word us as in man had become like one of them. The body of Christ is many members and yet one body. Also, men and women have to be subject to each other. Compound unity is why there can be more than one in the Godhead and still be One God for it is oneness in unity and not in number or inferiority.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were in on everything from creation and before and God is order in its perfect sense which is compound unity and not the inferiority and subordination doctrine of the Christadelphians and other similar beliefs. Jerry Kelso

And it's this kind of understanding and teaching that keeps people in darkness and ignorance as to what Christ has done. You teach you must see it in order to believe it, therefore it can't possibly be Truth.
When you look at the world you don't see through the finished work of Christ and see them Redeemed, but you still see sin, and sinners. But to see through Christ and what He alone has accomplished, you would know that they are Reconciled to God through Him. That's why we Preach and speak of The Reconciliation of All, because we know, we have seen, Him.

 

[Hawkins]

What's your take on this?

"I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- (Isa 45:7).

By the way, Universal Reconciliation is biblical:

"He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together...For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven...All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." -- (Col 1:17-20, 2 Cor 5:18-19)

UR is not Biblical. It's spreading a message that Jesus Christ and God can be ignored. You can ignore whatever said by Christ and God. You can continue to sin in whichever way you like. And in the end you are saved. This is the message behind UR, which is the exact message leading to the very death itself.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What's your take on this?

"I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- (Isa 45:7).

By the way, Universal Reconciliation is biblical:

"He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together...For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven...All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." -- (Col 1:17-20, 2 Cor 5:18-19)

My take would be the same as those coming long before us and also those who translated that particular verse to mentioning the English word "calamities" rather than "evil", which if the verse is not taken out of context is a view further supported by the surrounding verses. Which is also why in the orthodox view all suffering and death can correctly be attributed to sin and a direct result of the Fall of mankind rather than to God.

Not that this was a discussion my OP wanted to get into here and we have plenty of threads already on the topic, but I don't see the select quotes of letters from the Apostles as requiring us to believe in UR, especially and once again if taken in context. In fact since the same letter from Saint Paul talks about his audience being "the elect of God", claiming that Saint's remarks elsewhere on reconciliation should basically be understood as claiming everyone is right now or eventually will be the "elect of God" is sort of excluded by his usage of that phrase. And that is just but one example from that Saint and that same letter.

I do see how UR could be attractive and certainly hope we all make it. I can also see how taking various verses out of context one could defend such a belief. I do not however see how that belief or that rendering of those verses fits into the whole body of God's Word, especially where He is quoted in the Gospels talking about our ultimate fate. He left no room, zero in such discussions for there being relief from hell for the damned. At best one could offer - as actually a UR holder recently did in another thread on UR - that Jesus failed to mention there being an eventual relief from Hell to avoid upsetting His audience - since He knew many of them already believed in a never ending torment for the wicked. It remains a UR mystery how that could be seen as typical behavior given what else He is quoted saying in the Gospels with no qualms in stirring things up.

 

[jerry kelso]

And it's this kind of understanding and teaching that keeps people in darkness and ignorance as to what Christ has done. You teach you must see it in order to believe it, therefore it can't possibly be Truth.
When you look at the world you don't see through the finished work of Christ and see them Redeemed, but you still see sin, and sinners. But to see through Christ and what He alone has accomplished, you would know that they are Reconciled to God through Him. That's why we Preach and speak of The Reconciliation of All, because we know, we have seen, Him.

2knowhim,

1. I am sorry but you are way off base. It takes faith in believing there is a God and Hebrews 11:3; Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Your point of view is what is not truth.
I firmly believe that Calvary is the center of the universe and the finished work of Christ is what our lives are based on receiving salvation.

2. I have already told you that the world being reconciled to God is not the same as an individual being reconciled to God in the context of that individual being saved. They are two separate contexts.
If the world being reconciled to God was the same as an individual becoming saved, the world would already have been saved and no sin would exist for all would have been saved at that time when he died because he paid the price at that time. All debts would have ceased to the point of individuals of the world would be free for there debt was paid for. If a slave has a debt such as Jacob working for Rachael then when he paid his debt she automatically belonged to him. This does not happen with sinners for you believe they will eventually be saved and the only way you can prove that is to believe they are already saved but just haven't accepted it. This goes back to the eternal security doctrine of Calvin who believe in those predestined will eventually accept and those who are not predestined will not accept. The truth is that God predestined for all individuals to be saved and conformed to the image of the son Romans 8:28. The truth is that not everyone gets saved and so not everyone is conformed to the image of God's son.

3. It is a proven fact that there have been infidels that died feeling the flames of hell as they drew their last breath. This means UR have to believe in a kind of purgatory after death and there is no scriptural basis for such.

4. All you are doing is telling me what your doctrinal belief is but you cannot back it up scripturally. You also cannot refute what I have said according to the scripture and the logic of the scripture. You have stated that I don't believe in looking through the finished work etc. and I have proved you wrong. All you did this post was give your opinion of what I believe and have missed the mark. You have also given your opinion of why it is dangerous to not believe in UR but you cannot give any scriptural proof or logic or proper reconciling of all the scriptures on the subject.

5. I am not mad or anything of that nature but it amazes me that you give no proper rebuttal especially according to the scripture. This has nothing to do with thinking I am right or condescending attitude or a personal attack on you; but it is the plain truth that I have described your whole post which is not a proper rebuttal. Responses like this are for the most part an opinion at best and explaining the doctrinal belief which I already know and understand. Basic hermeneutics like immediate context and proper history and gradual revelation and reconciling the scriptures together to harmonize will help in being more consistent. Respectfully, I haven't seen this in your post at all. You are welcome to keep trying. God bless. Jerry Kelso

 

[Doveaman]

Not that this was a discussion my OP wanted to get into here and we have plenty of threads already on the topic, but I don't see the select quotes of letters from the Apostles as requiring us to believe in UR, especially and once again if taken in context. In fact since the same letter from Saint Paul talks about his audience being "the elect of God", claiming that Saint's remarks elsewhere on reconciliation should basically be understood as claiming everyone is right now or eventually will be the "elect of God" is sort of excluded by his usage of that phrase. And that is just but one example from that Saint and that same letter.

The biblical definition of Universal Reconciliation does not mean that the whole world is saved or that the whole world will be saved. It simply means that the whole world is now forgiven, that God is no longer holding sin against us. Sin no longer separates us from God because Christ took our sins to the cross. God is now open to all and freely accepts all who come to Him -- reconciliation.

"God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." -- (2 Cor 5:19)

Christ died for the forgiveness and reconciliation of the whole world, not only for the elect.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." -- (1 John 2:2).

Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. The whole world has been atoned or reconciled to God.

However, this does not mean that the whole world is saved. Salvation is by faith in the living Christ.

"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." -- (Rom 5:10).

We were reconciled to God through the atoning death of Christ, but we are now being saved through faith in the living Christ.

You will notice in the verse above that we were reconciled to God while we were still His enemies.

God has reconciled his enemies, but He is now saving His friends. All who have been reconciled to God can now become His friends through faith in the living Christ and be saved.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The biblical definition of Universal Reconciliation does not mean that the whole world is saved or that the whole world will be saved. It simply means that the whole world is now forgiven, that God is no longer holding sin against us. Sin no longer separates us from God because Christ took our sins to the cross. God is now open to all and freely accepts all who come to Him -- reconciliation.

"God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." -- (2 Cor 5:19)

Christ died for the forgiveness and reconciliation of the whole world, not only for the elect.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." -- (1 John 2:2).

Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. The whole world has been atoned or reconciled to God.

However, this does not mean that the whole world is saved. Salvation is by faith in the living Christ.

"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." -- (Rom 5:10).

We were reconciled to God through the atoning death of Christ, but we are now being saved through faith in the living Christ.

You will notice in the verse above that we were reconciled to God while we were still His enemies.

God has reconciled his enemies, but He is now saving His friends. All who have been reconciled to God can now become His friends through faith in the living Christ and be saved.

take a hint and take it where this discussion belongs please or start your own thread.

 

[Doveaman]

take a hint and take it where this discussion belongs please or start your own thread.

Why didn't you follow your own advise in your last post? I am simply responding to your last post.

Why are you allowed to deviate from the topic and then criticize me for doing the same?

This is just your hypocritical attempt to silence me on the subject of UR.

Besides, you were the one who brought up UR in this thread:

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

Based on your post I would say that I am very much on topic.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why didn't you follow your own advise in your last post? I am simply responding to your last post.

Why are you allowed to deviate from the topic and then criticize me for doing the same?

This is just your hypocritical attempt to silence me on the subject of UR.

Besides, you were the one who brought up UR in this thread:
Based on your post I would say that I am very much on topic.

Ah, because I am the OP and derailing the thread I started to talk about something else is insulting to me, which is probably one reason they made rules against derailing threads and I suspect the reason you posted that here as well.
Post 109 is a direct quote of my OP and my OP contains zero discussion on UR and mentions it only as a reason (to defend UR) that some folks have for claiming God created evil, which is what I started this thread to talk about. My response to the UR proclamation made at the end of post #109 was preceded by my saying "Not that this was a discussion my OP wanted to get into here". That subtle hint against an obvious rule violation was not taken, so when the poster sought to further the derail the thread by continuing that exchange, I then replied much more directly. The apparent sensitivity to that direct response is actually not what it may seem to other folks here. It is not like this very same poster has not had multiple exchanges with me about UR in the proper threads and I am happy to continue such exchanges with him in the proper place anytime he feels up to it. He knows that.

For anyone in this thread unaware, in my decade plus here there have always been active Universal Reconciliation threads, kind of like the gift that keeps on giving. Usually more than one active at any given time, and there are at least two right now. Both this poster and myself are active in those very recently. So this individual is well aware that I am actively continuously annoying himself and other UR folks in those threads by simply asking them to explain themselves. Am neither silent in those threads or asking others to be silent. In fact the more they talk about UR in my experience the more they demonstrate how destructive to Christian beliefs holding to a heresy can be - like God creates evil which destroys being able to say God is Good for example - the topic of this thread. Which BTW came up so often in the UR threads that I invited those folks here to discuss it so as to not derail those threads.

So the idea that this poster could actually believe I don't want people talking about UR is clearly a false picture the poster attempted to make here. We can only guess why someone would do that. Given my passion against such heresies which is clearly evident in those UR threads, the motive for this poster to basically slap me with a UR proclamation here is suspect at best. Given I knew all this when post#109 was made and now everyone knows it too, I think my initial reply and suggestion to stop it was rather polite and for that particular topic reserved by my typical standards.

People are free to post whenever and wherever they want, but there are rules here that everyone supposedly read and agreed to before making a first post here. If someone feels that being asked to follow the rules means they are being silenced, I cannot help them with that feeling - though as I suggested that expression by this poster in this thread is at least to me undoubtedly a shallow and false one. Everyone here is invited to engage me anytime on the multiple active threads about UR - all our welcome.

 

[Veritas/Minerva]

The Freewill doctrine is the most destructive thing in the body today. To think that man could actually override God's will is only a testimony of the arrogance of the human nature. And to think that man in his fallen state (which is Carnal by nature and the enemy of God) could actually make a choice to repent on his own, is The most Ridiculous thing that I think I have ever heard, and makes Christ's Sacrifice void.

If we in our fallen state could choose or would choose to follow Him, then why did Christ come to die for us? Just to give us a choice? That is absurd. For without His Spirit drawing us, and then enabling us, we could not do anything.
For without Him we can do nothing, especially come to the knowledge that we even needed a Saviour.

To think that YOU chose Him, is absolutely the Personification of the fallen, arrogant Nature that is in man, and has no understanding of why He had to come and die on that cross, much less why He rose again.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Since you are alleging that GOD preordains those whom HE wills to follow HIM to Salvation, then by extension, you are alleging GOD is intentionally preordaining those people whom HE does NOT will to follow HIM to HELL! A concept I find impossible to believe!

 

[Wgw]

Since you are alleging that GOD preordains those whom HE wills to follow HIM to Salvation, then by extension, you are alleging GOD is intentionally preordaining those people whom HE does NOT will to follow HIM to HELL! A concept I find impossible to believe!

Indeed, this Calvinist doctrine has been repudiated by all morally responsible Christians; it is vile blasphemy and has the effect of denying that God is love.

Moral responsibility requires that we reject the idea that God created evil, and that we reject the pernicious claptrap that people are predestined to hellfire regardless of their actions.

 

[2KnowHim]

Since you are alleging that GOD preordains those whom HE wills to follow HIM to Salvation, then by extension, you are alleging GOD is intentionally preordaining those people whom HE does NOT will to follow HIM to HELL! A concept I find impossible to believe!

Really, why? Did He not choose Pharaoh and raise Him up to show forth His Glory? Did He not choose vessels of honor and dishonor? What about loving Jacob and hating Esau, because of Election?

And your last statement as far as "following Him to Hell" is something you have said not me. I would imagine that your concept, and purpose of hell differs greatly too compared to mine.


2Th_2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But not to worry, God calls some out of every age to show His mercy to. But eventually All will come to Him through His Mercy, whither on this side Jordan or on the other. All will come to see The Glory of God and All will eventually confess and bow, and be redeemed by The Blood of The Lamb. And yes, even those who are not called now.