Did God create evil?

[Nathan22]

I've always seen this as a question of free will. If man has free will they can commit evil.

 

[FanthatSpark]

A humble opinion that talks to no one and all in meekness to take what is read here before God for truth. Big ole all around .

What is peace? In a mind , we translate differently in our individuality from what we have eaten from the physical. One would ask??? Is our mind at peace? There will never be sameness for those that hear for we all translate differently the Word/Bible, Where "God " opened, a mystery too the individual so that individual gains peace, as we read the Word applied to individuality, us. This is what makes God so awesome that two separate vessels in two separate religions are ate up in the Spirit for "their" minds are at peace and enclosed and no man can prevail Matt:16:18. Love is the endgame as all know in this thread. Knowledge can not explain Spirit yet we try in this lacking format of literature to come to sameness that is not possible. To do that negates our individuality and a living God that took the individual and loved them in the areas where no peace was at. Does this make any sense? We being individuals will have differential in what brings the mind to peace in... Gods way...That suits the individuality of every man/woman on this planet for those that hear. Once this key mystery is opened (as all here are starting to realize) there is no how or who made evil or UR or Catholics etc... for all of these differences, in back ground religion, one will find an individual who has obtained a mind enclosed with God. They no longer reason with man. In hopes this seed finds fertile ground that one should celebrate with God that a man/woman loves in their belief no matter the difference and/or how their mind has peace that radiates in Galatians 5:22-23 . If one has a mind of judgment is it in peace?

 

[2KnowHim]

Beautiful Fan, as always

 

[FanthatSpark]

Awe shuks mam ,

Those words don't stream from FTS but the love from God where we give praise that one hears the love in a seed that may help another in the language of life. Like jugghead said in a profound statement "To be independent of the Father you have to be completely one with Him"


Its not wrong to reason with men, knowledge & doctrines for it is the starting point for all. Thus
2 Timothy 3:16 & Proverbs 1:7 . We just tend to lose sight that our individuality has its own translation to bring the mind to peace that God provides. Example. 2knowhim stated in her translation there is no 2 Adams, where in my individual translation there is. I "wanted" to ask how do you come to this conclusion. That's flesh for ya that a conclusion is right or wrong when it really does not matter as long as our minds are at peace = Good= given by God in our individualism for that is the awesomeness of God to meet us where we are at in our minds. The how means nothing to the Spirit . People say of FTS today (In this forum of limited literature), "I" , do not explain my perceptions in threads. This is truth. For this vessel is individual and my translation, reasoned with God, to bring peace to this mind after decades of reasoning with men, religions and finally sequester with God/Word/Prayer as the guide to apply to the individualism of FTS duality of thinking process and enclose the mysteries in the mind given to the individualized FTS. We just tend to lose that the Word went individual in Matthew 16:18 connected to James 1:27. Your three step process piece hit the nail on the head 2KnowHim in profoundness in who we reason with in process. When we enclose our minds and live in love for the mind has obtained peace in God/Light/Jesus (all of those are the same in FTS's individuality of translation) John 16:33 our individualized belief is for, that peace, and is meant to be enclosed so no man can prevail to take a hard won joy. All you guys and gals know this for when one reasons with God we come to threads such as these that puts no lid on His greatness with human traditions that ultimately separate us in a pride of the tradition and or sameness of group mind set, right? This correlates to "My way is the right way", right? Our ways are the right ways for those that hear in our individualism where only God can teach to the person of said individualism that brings them peace. In the language of seed to find truth to what is read here with God in hopest all things

 

[jerry kelso]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2knowhim,

1. The scriptural context of God creating evil means calamity and as judgement. This can be seen throughout the bible for he makes it to rain on the just and the unjust who are disobedient.
Because God is light and no darkness is in him at all we can safely assume that before Lucifer there was no such thing as evil with God.

2. When God created angels he created them with the power of freewill choice. Because of the freewill choice program there has to be right and wrong, good or bad, etc. Evil was allowed only when Satan sinned for he was perfect until sin was found in him Ezekiel 28:15. So evil was created or originated when Lucifer sinned.

3. After Lucifer sinned and evil was present God restored the earth which was the kingdom of Lucifer's rule and that is why he was in the garden outside of the fact that he wanted for man to sin and be evil because his main objective was to overthrow God. He was a ruler of the earth before Adam and will work through the Antichrist to rule the earthly kingdom and will fail. At the end of the millennium will try one more time to usurp God in a rebellion and will lose once and for all and be thrown into the lake of fire and the Kingdom of God (universal) will become God all in all and the universe will be in perfect harmony again as before sin and evil was manifested.

4. The scripture never says or implies that God created sin or evil. Jerry kelso

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I would rather say, God made evil possible.

In this matter I think it is good to understand what evil really means. Evil is like darkness or emptiness or nothing. It is lack of good, truth and love (or with one word God). If God allows people to reject him and so choose darkness, it is people’s choice that creates darkness. God forms it by allowing people to choose it. So darkness is not really something of God, but rather lack of God.

One example of this is the book of Job. As it tells, Satan asks permission from God to do the evil things Satan wanted. God allowed it and so Satan went and did what he wanted, many evil things. The evil things were not from God, but God made it possible by not preventing them.

Similarly, when people reject God, light, they get darkness. Darkness is “formed”, when “light” steps aside. God forms “darkness” by not letting his “light” shine. And so, nothing evil is from God, but God’s actions can make room for darkness/emptiness/evil. When God “shines”, there is no room for evil.

Making evil possible is exactly my (the Church's) position. It is a potential, but only a potential when creating creatures truly free to choose evil. It also absolves God of any responsibility for the existence of evil.

I (and the Church) would agree with the darkness/light analogy, which is why evil is said to not really exist.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Awe shuks mam ,

Those words don't stream from FTS but the love from God where we give praise that one hears the love in a seed that may help another in the language of life. Like jugghead said in a profound statement "To be independent of the Father you have to be completely one with Him"


Its not wrong to reason with men, knowledge & doctrines for it is the starting point for all. Thus
2 Timothy 3:16 & Proverbs 1:7 . We just tend to lose sight that our individuality has its own translation to bring the mind to peace that God provides. Example. 2knowhim stated in her translation there is no 2 Adams, where in my individual translation there is. I "wanted" to ask how do you come to this conclusion. That's flesh for ya that a conclusion is right or wrong when it really does not matter as long as our minds are at peace = Good= given by God in our individualism for that is the awesomeness of God to meet us where we are at in our minds. The how means nothing to the Spirit . People say of FTS today (In this forum of limited literature), "I" , do not explain my perceptions in threads. This is truth. For this vessel is individual and my translation, reasoned with God, to bring peace to this mind after decades of reasoning with men, religions and finally sequester with God/Word/Prayer as the guide to apply to the individualism of FTS duality of thinking process and enclose the mysteries in the mind given to the individualized FTS. We just tend to lose that the Word went individual in Matthew 16:18 connected to James 1:27. Your three step process piece hit the nail on the head 2KnowHim in profoundness in who we reason with in process. When we enclose our minds and live in love for the mind has obtained peace in God/Light/Jesus (all of those are the same in FTS's individuality of translation) John 16:33 our individualized belief is for, that peace, and is meant to be enclosed so no man can prevail to take a hard won joy. All you guys and gals know this for when one reasons with God we come to threads such as these that puts no lid on His greatness with human traditions that ultimately separate us in a pride of the tradition and or sameness of group mind set, right? This correlates to "My way is the right way", right? Our ways are the right ways for those that hear in our individualism where only God can teach to the person of said individualism that brings them peace. In the language of seed to find truth to what is read here with God in hopest all things

Just scratching my head as to whether I follow this, but am thinking God gave us the ability to reason for a purpose - which means He meant us to use it. It makes absolutely no sense to say God is Good and turn around and say God creates evil - which no matter how one views evil it must of necessity be opposed to Good. While that does not mean God cannot use evil for Good, saying God is Good clearly makes it impossible to say He creates evil - the opposite of what He is. And to say otherwise would mean one has Him acting (creating) in a divided manner - against Himself. Which He Himself warned us about the futility of a house divided.

 

[x141]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

Darkness defines light as much as light defines darkness, but Isaiah seemed to think they were both the same to God.

Joshua when seeing the angel with the sword immediately said are you here to kill us or our enemies. The reply of the angel was neither ...

Do you believe God knowingly was willing to torment forever a portion of what he had made just so that he could have the few that he would save from himself, by himself? Was this the cost that God counted to build his house that he desired as his habitation before he ever began creating ...

Is it wrong to reason with God ... and is not the bases of reasoning good and evil ...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Darkness defines light as much as light defines darkness, but Isaiah seemed to think they were both the same to God.

Joshua when seeing the angel with the sword immediately said are you here to kill us or our enemies. The reply of the angel was neither ...

Do you believe God knowingly was willing to torment forever a portion of what he had made just so that he could have the few that he would save from himself, by himself? Was this the cost that God counted to build his house that he desired as his habitation before he ever began creating ...

Is it wrong to reason with God ... and is not the bases of reasoning good and evil ...

I did not start this thread to discuss UR, only the belief that God creates evil has held by some UR supporters in this section of the forums.

I could agree our perception of darkness provides a contrast which can aid in guiding us. I obviously do not agree saying so makes darkness a thing in the same sense we say light is a thing. Light is real, a part of our reality. In this view, darkness represents only the relative absence of light, because something blocks it. The idea of blocking Goodness relevant to this thread as it would be odd to view God blocking Himself in claiming He creates evil.

To address my OP, the question was did God make darkness, specifically as we mean it here "evil". If we define darkness as the absence of something else, in the case of Goodness the absence of it is evil, then the obvious answer is no. This should be more obvious to everyone if we restrict that discussion to evil which is the direct result of the actions of creatures having a free choice to do evil. We need to make that distinction to separate those "evils" from the sorrows resulting from natural calamities which are also part of our current reality. While some of us blame the existence of those "sorrows" on one result of Adam's first sin, it can definitely be said those sorrows existing are the way God has "ordered" things to be at least for now. But even there, that means to me God either allowed or put into motion the elements required to result in those sorrows, rather than to be said to be creating all earthquakes, tornadoes, disease, famine...etc.

I meant to be addressing specifically whether it makes sense to say God created the opposite of what He is.

 

[x141]

Was darkness (in what ever manner you speak of it as being) here before God ...

The OT says he creates both evil, darkness, and the destroyer, but also that he turns darkness to light, which is where light was called out to begin with; which are truths of consciousness as much as they are the truth of the process of it, and as you said, it's a belief, which is the same as saying, it is what you perceive to be true; though you do not see, yet you believe.

God creates light and darkness when he shows up no different then when there is a law, it is an absolute that all things through perception are measured by until it brings us to an end of such measurement, or that is, our own soul; individually.

If not for God, nothing (and whatever you define this as), would be.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Was darkness (in what ever manner you speak of it as being) here before God ...

The OT says he creates both evil, darkness, and the destroyer, but also that he turns darkness to light, which is where light was called out to begin with; which are truths of consciousness as much as they are the truth of the process of it, and as you said, it's a belief, which is the same as saying, it is what you perceive to be true; though you do not see, yet you believe.

God creates light and darkness when he shows up no different then when there is a law, it is an absolute that all things through perception are measured by until it brings us to an end of such measurement, or that is, our own soul; individually.

If not for God, nothing (and whatever you define this as), would be.

No "darkness" did not pre-exists Goodness. This is opposed to and the Church rejects the idea some apparently hold here, that (at least) two opposing entities existed together prior to creation with one Good the other Evil.

The single verse referenced in your quote above is why I mentioned suffering and distinguishing such "apparent evils" from the evil creatures do in my reply to you as I knew that was probably where this was going. That OT reference is also apparently a popular source in these threads for claiming Biblical support of the idea that God creates evil. As part of the OT, it is actually old, which means a whole lot of people have read it before. Which means the same Christian people who have been saying God is Good for several millennium and therefore cannot create evil, those same people also read the OT and were aware of this verse and saw no problem understanding that OT writer differently than you obviously do. I think pagans and even Plato have argued that you cannot imagine a benevolent entity that also creates evil - it is a contradiction.

The OT could also be said to "say" God is like Big Bird or chicken, but I do not believe that to be true either. So one can claim a belief because the Bible literally "says so" but it does not necessarily mean the claim is true. And it is also a very weak position to take on any given verse, especially when the original faith of the original writer of a particular verse did NOT HOLD the belief that is now being claimed the verse means, which is clearly the case with Isaiah 45. If the writer inspired by God to write that verse did not believe God creates evil, then obviously it cannot be said that is the message God intended that verse to represent. Which is also why long people way smarter than certainly me could understand Isaiah 45 in terms of "apparent" or what later Christians theologians would call "natural" evils and not have a contradiction in their saying God does not create evil.

IOW even though one can say it literally says so in English, it does not follow that the writer of Isa 45 meant that God creates evil, especially when that is not what Jews are recorded as teaching/believing then or even today.

 

[Colter]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

The existence of a Good God provides the potential for his children to choose not Good.

 

[x141]

No "darkness" did not pre-exists Goodness. This is opposed to and the Church rejects the idea some apparently hold here, that (at least) two opposing entities existed together prior to creation with one Good the other Evil.

The two opposing forces are in one's head, and in scripture, it comes (in one picture) in the form of a tree (knowledge), and it's fruit (or sons); but I did not say goodness (though there was darkness on the face of the deep where light was called out of (in picture), being that good is just one of the fruits of this same tree, that both lead to the same truth of what an inheritance divided leads to, which is confusion, but if it were not here before God, then it did not come into being without him, and as a serpent plays it's part in the purpose God purposed in himself before all things were.

Knowledge is the truth of the process (of time or perception), whether in the form of a garden enclosed, or one that is not, or the the two truths of the same one soul (of the individual), and speaks to consciousness as the perception we view our Father as, hence the losing of our soul along with the knowledge based on something outside of us as being the truth of where we have come from.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The two opposing forces are in one's head, and in scripture, it comes (in one picture) in the form of a tree (knowledge), and it's fruit (or sons); but I did not say goodness (though there was darkness on the face of the deep where light was called out of (in picture), being that good is just one of the fruits of this same tree, that both lead to the same truth of what an inheritance divided leads to, which is confusion, but if it were not here before God, then it did not come into being without him, and as a serpent plays it's part in the purpose God purposed in himself before all things were.

Knowledge is the truth of the process (of time or perception), whether in the form of a garden enclosed, or one that is not, or the the two truths of the same one soul (of the individual), and speaks to consciousness as the perception we view our Father as, hence the losing of our soul along with the knowledge based on something outside of us as being the truth of where we have come from.

If I understood any of this, I think we are in agreement.

 

[jugghead]

I thought about starting a new thread with this question, but it seems fitting to ask it here:

Does evil have a purpose? If so, what is it's purpose?

If we are to understand that evil is "that which the Father isn't" at the same time we are to understand "that which the Father is" with that being good.

If evil did not exist, there is no way we could understand what the Father isn't .... so would it not make sense that He created evil in order for us to understand what He isn't?

Just something to think about

 

[Phantasman]

Hello Dr Love

Most things in the world, as long as their inner parts are hidden, stand upright and live. If they are revealed, they die, as is illustrated by the visible man: as long as the intestines of the man are hidden, the man is alive; when his intestines are exposed and come out of him, the man will die. So also with the tree: while its root is hidden, it sprouts and grows. If its root is exposed, the tree dries up. So it is with every birth that is in the world, not only with the revealed but with the hidden. For so long as the root of wickedness is hidden, it is strong. But when it is recognized, it is dissolved. When it is revealed, it perishes. That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.- Philip

The Father is perfect. If the Father created evil would he still be perfect? As above, evil is ignorance. To love the Father then to love others as ourselves is Christ's commandment. If God is love, then the lesser is lack or ignorance of perfect love.

When evil confronted Jesus in the wilderness, he used ignorance to tempt him. Jesus corrected him with truth (knowledge) in all three instances.

 

[x141]

Ignorance (in the wilderness) is the temptation (in thought) to eat of "if ... you be the son of God" which has never been a matter of being this by thought, but what man has always been.

 

[Colter]

I thought about starting a new thread with this question, but it seems fitting to ask it here:

Does evil have a purpose? If so, what is it's purpose?

If we are to understand that evil is "that which the Father isn't" at the same time we are to understand "that which the Father is" with that being good.

If evil did not exist, there is no way we could understand what the Father isn't .... so would it not make sense that He created evil in order for us to understand what He isn't?

Just something to think about

You make a good point however all's that would be required is Gods existential goodness for his children to choose other than Gods will and experience evil.

And when people say "create evil" what are they saying? Evil isn't a thing, Sin isn't a thing. Both are the result of the choosing of a will conscious mind. Sin is to know what is right, the divine law yet choose to do otherwise. In that regard the choice creates the sin not Gods provision of the choice.

 

[x141]

Without the law there is no (knowledge of) sin, or as Jesus had said, if I had not said, they would have had no sin.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

When God created the heavens and the earth, he also created a tree that represented the possibilities of Good and Evil .. however .. it was Adam who unleashed this possibility of evil into the world.