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Agreed. Check 5th sentence of last paragraph.dr. bubba love,
1. I totally agree with you and I believe that you have addressed the seemingly contradiction between moving himself against himself. I have always been taught it meant calamities because it rains on the just and the unjust.
2. Calamities are judgement and God is a just judge. To create evil would have to be understood in this context, otherwise it would stay a paradox unsolved.
3. That reminds me of a phrase that says, we are sinners saved by grace used in present day living. We were sinners saved by grace and now we are no longer a sinner because it is not our nature. The only way to be a sinner saved by grace after salvation is the fact that we can commit a sin or looking back as reflection when we first got saved.
4. I just think people read a phrase and have a point of reference to what it means in their understanding that may be limited by not knowing the context of the matter. This is why it is important for all of us to understand proper biblical hermeneutics. Understanding to different people when they read a phrase may mean something different with each person. Sometimes phrase may appear cut and dry and straight forward and may be more of an idiom. Paul said I die daily which had to do with physical death but he wasn't dying everyday and being resurrected every day but he was putting his life on the line everyday and had that possibility and he wanted them Corinthians to know that didn't believe in the physical resurrection that there was a real and physical resurrection otherwise everything was in vain.
5. The same way with "Created evil". He literally created men and so people automatically thinks he created evil. When evil is translated properly to calamities and associated with judgement then it makes sense and avoids the confusion of God being contradictory between making evil and good. Evil as far as sin was not spoken into existence by God. It came into existence when he sinned. The only reason it was there at all is because God deals with freewill people and the created have to make a choice to serve God or not. Even at this it would still be judgement for Satan was judged that moment he sinned and put out of Heaven. Good job and God bless! Jerry kelso
I don't know any scriptures definitely saying Mary was without a sin nature, rather there was her speaking of her need for her Redeemer, but we humans all who are born are certainly not guilty of sin already, but have the sin nature that has us needing the redemption Christ came to give us. When we do sin we need to come to repentance for that.
DrBubbaLove said:I had to throw that in there. And as Catholics, we are not bound to only what is definitive/detailed in Scripture, however the angels greeting of Mary is at least supportive of the teaching, which the early Church supported as well and we accept it as a teaching of the Apostles. Most notably this (and most of what we know about Her) would come from Saint John who is said, of all the Apostles, to have spent the most time with Mary until Her death.
It is not like we all don't have beliefs not explicit in the Bible, the Trinity would be a notable example. We Catholics do have much more of those examples because we hold that there is a body of teachings passed down to us from the Apostles which we hold to be God's Word because of Whom gave it to them and on equal standing with Sacred Scripture.
At least hopefully we could agree that Jesus was born without a blemish on His human soul/inclination to sin (which does not mean He could not be tempted by the way.)
You know, I think since we have been born on this side of the cross, we seem to forget that other nations and The Jews in particular, could not stand in God's presence. We however have Jesus Christ as "The sanctified ground", "The Altar of God", "The place between the Cheribums on top of the Mercy seat" Where God met with The High Priest.
God's very Presence would destroy the people if they did not have this "meeting Place" for God to come down. We seem to forget this little detail, that if it were not for Jesus Christ we could not be able to come near The Father or we too would be destroyed.
For God is Holy and Spirit, we are flesh and sinful. Jesus became both flesh and took on the sinful nature of All mankind so that now we can enter into The Presence of God without fear of destruction. But only because we have been made aware of this through His Spirit, is to our benefit here and now. But what of those that are not aware of this? What happens to them? Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. Therefore All mankind has this "shield" so to speak when it comes to salvation, not because of something we do but because of what He has done. Because of what Christ has done God is able to come near any of us, even those who still have the sin consciousness. The difference is....His people perish for lack of this knowledge, they have not known this, and they parish in the flesh. And they will not know this until on the other side of the grave unless, they are made to hear and see. This difference of Knowing now is everything or should be to us. This is a great reward for us who do know now. But again it don't change the fact that He did this for all, what it does make a difference in is Living here and Now in Him. Some do not know this, this is why we speak and preach The Reconciliation of All mankind, because we want people to know what He has done for All, so they too can rejoice, and Know Him while still in this body of death, on this side, where we need Him most. For we live in this Evil age. Knowing Him is Life Eternal, it is a quality of Life we could not Know if it were not for Jesus. Many don't know because of Religion and traditions of men.
Those places in the old testament when they prepared a place for God to be among His people is a picture of Our Lord that was to come. Jesus told His disciples, "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there you may be also".
This is extremely important when understanding what He has done for us all. He is the one who stands between God and man, and thank God He does.
So the bottom line is.........The only difference between Us who profess Him and those who don't.........Is They Don't Know. Freewill, and Hell fire and brimstone teachings from those who don't understand the fullness of what scripture is really saying through The Spirit, is what hinders them from receiving The Love of God, that changes the heart.
For it is The Goodness of God that leads to repentance, it is The Love of God that constrains us, It is The Love of Truth That saves us continuously. It is Jesus, His Christ.
Be ye Reconciled to God.
You know, I think since we have been born on this side of the cross, we seem to forget that other nations and The Jews in particular, could not stand in God's presence. We however have Jesus Christ as "The sanctified ground", "The Altar of God", "The place between the Cheribums on top of the Mercy seat" Where God met with The High Priest.
God's very Presence would destroy the people if they did not have this "meeting Place" for God to come down. We seem to forget this little detail, that if it were not for Jesus Christ we could not be able to come near The Father or we too would be destroyed.
For God is Holy and Spirit, we are flesh and sinful. Jesus became both flesh and took on the sinful nature of All mankind so that now we can enter into The Presence of God without fear of destruction. But only because we have been made aware of this through His Spirit, is to our benefit here and now. But what of those that are not aware of this? What happens to them? Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. Therefore All mankind has this "shield" so to speak when it comes to salvation, not because of something we do but because of what He has done. Because of what Christ has done God is able to come near any of us, even those who still have the sin consciousness. The difference is....His people perish for lack of this knowledge, they have not known this, and they parish in the flesh. And they will not know this until on the other side of the grave unless, they are made to hear and see. This difference of Knowing now is everything or should be to us. This is a great reward for us who do know now. But again it don't change the fact that He did this for all, what it does make a difference in is Living here and Now in Him. Some do not know this, this is why we speak and preach The Reconciliation of All mankind, because we want people to know what He has done for All, so they too can rejoice, and Know Him while still in this body of death, on this side, where we need Him most. For we live in this Evil age. Knowing Him is Life Eternal, it is a quality of Life we could not Know if it were not for Jesus. Many don't know because of Religion and traditions of men.
Those places in the old testament when they prepared a place for God to be among His people is a picture of Our Lord that was to come. Jesus told His disciples, "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there you may be also".
This is extremely important when understanding what He has done for us all. He is the one who stands between God and man, and thank God He does.
So the bottom line is.........The only difference between Us who profess Him and those who don't.........Is They Don't Know. Freewill, and Hell fire and brimstone teachings from those who don't understand the fullness of what scripture is really saying through The Spirit, is what hinders them from receiving The Love of God, that changes the heart.
For it is The Goodness of God that leads to repentance, it is The Love of God that constrains us, It is The Love of Truth That saves us continuously. It is Jesus, His Christ.
Be ye Reconciled to God.
The natural man doesn't understand the spiritual things of God.
Freewill choice is how God deals with men for a relationship is reciprocal, not coerced. Choose you this day whom you will serve.
Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.
I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.
As we all need a Redeemer. The proper understanding of the teaching is that the Grace extended to Her beginning at Her Immaculate Conception, would only be possible because we all have Redeemer. God is not bound by time in what He can or cannot do. So applying a Grace to Her as an exception to the way He would IN TIME make possible for everyone is a part of that teaching. That many Protestants reject it goes without saying.The angel's greeting wouldn't support it as Mary was needing her Redeemer, the teaching only has the tradition as support. What is known from what the apostle John said?
I think the history of the early Church clearly refutes the notion that there was enough explicit detail in Scriptures to allow someone put the Trinity Doctrine to pen. If that were true the Doctrine (which is a revealed Truth) was explicit in Scripture, then they would not have spent several hundred years having to write it down in a way that refutes all the misunderstandings that arose regarding His Nature, the Nature and nature of Jesus,...etc. So we will have to disagree that the Trinity is not an example of a revealed Truth that the Church teaches and many Protestant faiths have not rejected. The fact some Protestant faiths have rejected that Doctrine and yet remain Christian supporting Scripture sort of refutes the idea there "is enough scripture passages for it". Obviously not true there is enough, IOW.The Catholic Church does have the traditions indeed that they say are apostolic in origin and passed down from that time. We don't all rely on such teaching. The Trinity is not such an example. There is enough scripture passages for it, without the term for it which developed later.
I think I agree with most of that (last sentence is at least oddly worded, but having Scripture to support various aspects of the Trinity Doctrine still does not mean Scripture alone is sufficient for deriving it.snipOfAboveToShortenMyReply said:Yahweh
to God.
Correct, and that was point when I first raised it in the threads on Universal Reconcilliation where those supporting that heresy claimed God creates evil. And it wouldn't be ok if someone claimed it was just a little wicked as it means He could not then be said He is Good. Another way to look at what you just said, is that it would also mean something else must exist which is ALL Good - so in essence claiming He creates evil is claiming He is not God (even if those claiming He is evil do not realize they are doing that in making that claim.if the true God created evil, then He would be evil-minded and thus wicked - it is just not possible that He be evil-minded/wicked
Blessings
Correct, and that was point when I first raised it in the threads on Universal Reconcilliation where those supporting that heresy claimed God creates evil. And it wouldn't be ok if someone claimed it was just a little wicked as it means He could not then be said He is Good. Another way to look at what you just said, is that it would also mean something else must exist which is ALL Good - so in essence claiming He creates evil is claiming He is not God (even if those claiming He is evil do not realize they are doing that in making that claim.
Somewhere along the way someone thought a particular understanding of a single OT verse would be all they needed to support this false claim that God creates evil and taught others to respond to this challenge with that verse. FAIL.
If natural man cannot understand spiritual things of God, then how can He choose Him, much less have a Relationship with Him. If he could choose then Christ died in vain, and it's not about His Spirit drawing you, changing you, influencing you, leading you, it's all about YOU, YOU become your own little god. If we could choose to follow Him then why would we need a Saviour? You can save yourself.
Jesus said Without Him we can do nothing, .....but Through Him we can do all things.
You and others who believe in Freewill, says we can choose Him or Reject Him, it is of our own will, not His, then you might as well say that, man's will to resist Him, is stronger than His will to Save.
We have a will, but it is very limited, and is not Free when it comes to Salvation, and in no way can resist The Will of God.
If you think so then you are deceiving yourself and others who hear you.
What happened to Jonah when he wanted to resist The will of God?
What happened to Jeremiah when he refused to speak of God anymore?
Did Pharaoh have a choice? Did Paul? Did Judas?
Grace means.. Divine influence upon The heart, without it we would all be lost, and it's because of Christ Jesus that we are not, not because of man's ability to choose. A blind man can't see unless his eyes be healed.
The culprit is the lousy translation of the KJV of one scripture which other translations use words that don't mean evil but rather a bad situation (calamity). One would have to contend the plagues God created via Moses in Egypt was "Evil" in this ideology but I'm betting those people reject those plagues as "evil" they would be considered calamities which is what most modern translation use instead of the KJV "evil".
so let me get this straight...... you say God didn't create evil but he creates forms of evil, which is creating evil. I think your logic is contradictory here.The word Evil in Hebrew is Ra. In it's feminine form it means calamity but in the masculine form it means evil. When scripture states that God creates (not created) evil it is the masculine form meaning evil. God didn't create evil but once it existed he creates forms of evil that serve righteousness.
so let me get this straight...... you say God didn't create evil but he creates forms of evil, which is creating evil. I think your logic is contradictory here.
You still have God creating evil regardless of your logic having Lucifer "do it first" doesn't make God "NOT" solve the problem nor excusing God of being a "source of evil" (creator of it). I contend the newer translations got it right and the KJV and those tied to it got it wrong.There is a huge difference between being the origin of the creation of evil and creating evil after it already existed.
I don't believe God originally created evil. I think it came from Lucifer's first sin. God states he creates evil:
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Here God says he creates evil. But what kind of evil? Literal evil or turmoil?
H7451
??? ??
ra? ra^?a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil or calamity" if it's in the feminine form. In the masculine form it can mean natural evil or moral evil. God is fully moral so the evil God creates is not morally evil but is known as "natural evil" which means something bad mainly from the perspective of those receiving the evil from God. Example: When God rained fire from heaven on Sodom, the people would consider that receiving evil from God because burning to death is painful. They deserved this fate so it was not morally evil to kill them in this sense. I ask you why do newer translations not use "evil" in that verse are the translators wrong or is the KJV and translations tied to it wrong? I contend the KJV got it wrong to begin with.
Which form is this EVIL in in this verse?
First you go here and see the word and what form it's in.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Then click on Isaiah 45, then scroll to verse 7.
So, it is in the masculine form meaning it can only mean evil, nothing else.
To know how to tell feminine from masculine you go here:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Four/Feminine_Nouns/feminine_nouns.html
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
And thus we know for a fact that God is stating he creates literal evil since this word is in the masculine form and can only mean literal evil.
You still have God creating evil regardless of your logic having Lucifer "do it first" doesn't make God "NOT" solve the problem nor excusing God of being a "source of evil" (creator of it). I contend the newer translations got it right and the KJV and those tied to it got it wrong.
creating evil=cause evil to come to beWhat the masculine form of Ra means cannot be argued against. Any bible that doesn't translate it as "evil" is not properly translating the word. And why do you not recognize the difference between creating evil and being the origin of evil's creation?
I sort of thought a prior post of yours was essentially making that point about using the existing of evil/suffering for Good).
If one creates an apple from nothing, then they are the origin of that apple, it doesn't matter if apples already existed or not just the same for evil.What the masculine form of Ra means cannot be argued against. Any bible that doesn't translate it as "evil" is not properly translating the word. And why do you not recognize the difference between creating evil and being the origin of evil's creation?
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