Did Daniels AOD and The Great Tribulation Take Place In 66-70AD Jerusalem, As Reformed Preterist Eschatology Claims?

[David Kent]

Where in the bible does it state Titus gave orders, it doesn't

Your complete preterist 70AD eschatology is built around a Roman historian named Flavius Josephus, who was a Jewish military commander in Israel, who was a traitor and defected to the enemy in Rome, he was chosen to be the Emperors chief propagandist, he was paid handsomely with pensions, a palace, and wives for his works in Roman propaganda

Stick to God's holy words for truth, and not that of Flavius Josephus, a Jewish traitor to his people and the Roman Emperors tool for propaganda

Please don't call me a preterist. If you do that again I will consider calling you a JW.

Josephus was known as a seeker after the truth. He was a priest. And because he went over to the Romans didn't make him any more a traitor than those who went over to the Babylonians after the warnings of Jeremiah.

 

[David Kent]

I Strongly Disagree

The scripture below presents (The Second Coming) and Paul gives events that must take place prior to this

The literal human man of sin will be revealed to the church on this earth, and this literal human man will be living on this earth at the Lord's second coming, where he will be destroyed by the Lord's brightness, simpl, clear, easy to understand

You claim the events seen below have already taken place, and the Bible tells me let no man deceive you by any means, I choose God's words of truth below, the events are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is ca.lled God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-8 destroys the dispensational teaching.

1 Falling away
2 Man of sin revealed
3 We meet the Lord.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, Yes, Yes, a future literal human man

Nope.

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

Nope. You need to find God's definition for the horn in Scripture. You need to find God's definition of the beast in Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture, do you fill find that God said the beast is a literal single human man. You make it up.

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Heard that all the time. It's a typical belief of the premillennialist/Dispensationalism and it is sevenfold wrong.

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

For today, here is a biblical lesson for you on the horns. Yes, a long version.

As I said, the horns in Scripture are a symbol representing power.

I did not say that. God did.

For example, in Psalms 8:21 or 2nd Samuel 22:3, saying "horn of my salvation" is the same as God declaring His Power of salvation because the horn is the symbol in the Bible of "Power". We can see why simply by looking at the natural world. The horns of a bull are his power, those objects that men are most afraid of. The horns of an animal are looked upon as its power even today. God used horns symbolically this way, which is why there were horns on the Altar of Israel. The altar is for the administration of the strength of sacrifice, which represented Christ. In understanding this we can readily see why God says "Horn of my Salvation," because all throughout the Bible we see it does illustrate they are used as a "figure" or symbol of the power or strength of whatever is in view.

Psalms 89:17

• For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted."

People don't literally have a horn to be lifted up of course, but the horn is used here to convey the sense of believers being exalted in the glory of "His strength." We are lifted up in His strength (Psalms 46:1; 81:1) rather than our own. e.g.:

Lamentations 2:3

• "He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

To cut off the horn of Israel is to break their "Power" so that they will be defeated. Again, this illustrates that their horn is a symbol of their strength and power.

Deuteronomy 33:17

• "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh."

Here again, the horn is used to symbolize the object of the power and strength of the Bull that enables him to push against the people.

Lamentations 2:17

• "The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries."

In this passage, God uses the horn to signify that he has taken away the strength or power of Israel as judgment, and has exalted the horn (or Power) of their adversaries to overcome them. In other words, while (verse 3) cutting off the horn of Israel means they no longer had power to stand against their enemies, setting up the horn of their adversaries (verse 17) means that the enemies now had the Power to conquer Israel. Clearly the horns there signify Power or strength. We see that when a horn is broken or cut off, it is symbolism that one's power has been broken or cut off. Whether used in conjunction with a crown, where it's man's ability to rule (as a king), or for something to be unable to stand or have strength before an enemy, that signified the cutting off of power. E.g.:

Daniel 8:7

• "And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand."

When the horn was broken, there was no more "power" (not man) in him to stand before the he goat. This is what those broken "horns" symbolized. And the same with the power of evil when it was broken.

Daniel 8:8

• "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."

The great horn allowed him to push with power so that the Ram could not stand before him. i.e., it 'symbolized' his great power. And likewise, when his horn was broken, it symbolizes his power being broken or taken away.

Likewise in Revelation chapter 17 where we see that the dragon had ten horns. Here the number ten signifies fullness, and the horns signify power. So this imagery is to illustrate the fullness of time these kings have "power" to rule along with the Beast.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive Power as kings one hour with the beast."

The horns signify the "power" they had to rule with the beast for this short period.

1st Kings 22:11

• "And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the LORD, With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them."

Here God uses the imagery of horns of iron to illustrate the great power of them by which they could push the Syrians and defeat them. The recurring theme of horns is that they symbolize the power of whatever is in view. Likewise, the lamb of Revelation chapter five verse six has seven horns depicting its power. The number seven illustrates the completeness or totality of whatever is in view, and thus this represents complete power. This signifies the lamb which was slain, was the appointed sacrifice and had complete or total power. Even as Christ illustrated Himself.

Matthew 28:18

• "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

1st Peter 3:22

• "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

So the Lamb with 7 horns signifies Jesus Christ, the complete power of God in the atonement. This of course is also witnessed by God speaking of the power of the sacrifice in the imagery of the 4 or universal horns of the altar.

Leviticus 4:7

• "And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."

Or in breaking the power of idolatry in breaking off the horns of the altar.

Amos 3:14

• "That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of the altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground."

By this God is illustrating that he is taking away its power or strength.

The horns of the Dragon and the horns of the Lamb are related only in the sense that The Dragon is the substitute Christ or "Anti-christ" which mimics the true. The spirit of Satan the antithesis of the Spirit of Christ. He is truly the Pseudo christ. e.g.,

Revelation 13:11

• "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Horns "like" a lamb. This is the substitute or Pseudo Christ who mimics the Lamb of God, but is truly the Antichrist. He comes looking like he comes with the "Power" of Christ, but his words are what gives him away. For they are not the words of God, they are the words of men, the words of nullification, compromise, and lawlessness. The word of God is what the man of God will come with, but the words of Antichrist is what the man of lawlessness (sin) would come with. Satan's greatest deception is that he comes "looking like" the power of God and as a minister of righteousness (2nd Corinthians 11:14-15). He comes saying Peace, Peace, he comes with healings, he comes saying God loves you, because he is the great deceiver. This is his M.O. or Modus Operandi. In this sense that horns represent power. It is power no matter whose it is (Satan's or Christ's).

Therefore, God has defined the horns as power or strength. not a single man. Period!

 

[TribulationSigns]

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-8 destroys the dispensational teaching.

1 Falling away
2 Man of sin revealed
3 We meet the Lord.

Indeed, but I also like to add:
1.) The falling away is the apostasy of the church.
2.) Satan is revealed through his false prophets and christs. This is how he is revealed to the Elect. Not one man revealed.
3.) Those who "remain and alive" will meet with the Lord at the Last Trump. Not 7 years prior.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Alright, I’ll admit there may be more than one way to interpret these verses and after thinking about this, I probably haven’t been interpreting them correctly but no matter how we interpret them, that interpretation should hold true for a person’s entire view.

I agree. And I believe it does in my case.

In a previous post I think you used the NIV of Luke 20:35 which says this …

But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage.

FYI, I use the NIV in cases like this because I think referring to it as "the age to come" is better than referring to it as "the world to come" as the KJV does. Since it's translated from the word "aion" rather than the word "kosmos", I think "age" is a better translation than "world" since He was talking in relation to time and not in relation to the world (kosmos) itself.

I think you are in agreement with the NIV in that it’s the age to come in which people don’t get married. Since Jesus makes this statement prior to His death, prior to Satan being bound, prior to the millennium, and prior to the so called church age, then, as you have pointed out, if people are still getting married we haven’t yet reached the age to come.

Yes, that's right.

Matthew 24:38 says as in the days that were before the flood they were marrying and given in marriage. So shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What are your thoughts on the church age? Is it a complete misnomer and there is no such thing?

I don't believe scripture ever refers to a "church age". Clearly, it was not always the case that Jew and Gentile believers were brought together as one in the church by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22). So, if you want to see the time period during which that has been the case (which has been since Christ died and rose again) as the church age, I guess that's one way to look at it. But, again, I don't see anything in scripture which refers to the time period since Christ's resurrection as "the church age". I certainly do not believe what Jesus was talking about in Luke 20:34-36 had anything to do with a supposed "church age".

Also what about Hebrews 9:26?

Hebrews 9:26 NIV

Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I'm not certain how the word "ages" should be understood in this verse, but I see no relation between this verse and Luke 20:34-36. It seems that it may be referring to all the generations (ages) leading up to Christ's sacrifice.

How could Christ have appeared at the culmination of the ages in the first century when people are still getting married today. According to Luke 20:34 marriage can only happen in this age, which according to you’re view that age was prior to the cross and continues until the dead are resurrected.

I think you are mistaken to try to see any direct relation between Hebrews 9:26 and Luke 20:34-36 as I don't believe they have the same context. It's clear to me that Jesus, in Luke 20:34-36, was contrasting this temporal age, during which people get married and they die, with the eternal age to come which will occur when the resurrection of the dead occurs, and at that point no one will get married or die ever again.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Just as the poster presented, Daniel 7:11 is the second coming final judgement, when the saints possess the eternal kingdom, it's that simple

I didn't even mention Daniel 7:11 in my post. I was talking about Daniel 7:13-14 which is about what happened after the resurrection and ascension of Christ. It matches what Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:19-23 about what happened after Christ's resurrection and at His ascension.

 

[David Kent]

The temple destruction talked about In Matthew 24:2, Mark 13:2, was symbolically the Lord's body as John 2:19-21 teaches below

Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, and The Second Coming are "Future Events" unfulfilled

Daniel's AOD causes the great tribulation, Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation, this didn't take place in 66-70AD Jerusalem, Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment is "Wrong"

John 2:19-21KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Pretty hard to have a Great Tribulation in 66-70AD and Jesus Christ returning (Immediately After The Tribulation) as seen below, reformed preterist eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment is "Wrong"

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Imme