Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Maria Billingsley]

Jesus does not contradict Himself from one sentence to another. I did not come to destroy the law and fulfill does not mean just that. It means to fill-full.

If I fill-full my wedding vows, does that mean I can break them and free to commit adultery or does it mean to fulfill my wedding vows that I am keeping them?

Matthew 5:19 says it all 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And than Jesus goes on to speak in detail about two of the commandments murder and adultery, which He is not advocating we are free to commit these sins.[/QUOTE Yes I know. This is prior to His death,resurrection and ascension. If one decides to reject Him, they are in bondage to the law. He was speaking to the Jews.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Matthew 7:21-23 comes to mind. Jesus is not teaching lawlessness (without law) and says the opposite, IF you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

Yes and He has two, Love. All the laws hang on this kind of Love which is only available through the regenerated heart by the power of His Holy Spirit.
Blessings

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes and He has two, Love. All the laws hang on this kind of Love which is only available through the regenerated heart by the power of His Holy Spirit.
Blessings

Is love fulfilled when we keep the commandments or break His commandments?

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3
If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15
Showing mercy to thousands, who love Me and keep My commandments Exodus 20:6

Seems pretty clear to me!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1. Yes I know. This is prior to His death,resurrection and ascension. If one decides to reject Him, they are in bondage to the law. He was speaking to the Jews.
   Blessings
   
   1 minute ago
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I know this is a popular teaching that the laws only apply to Jews, but wouldn't that mean only the promises apply to Jews too? We can't select what applies to us and what does not. God never made a covenant with the Gentiles but the good news is those who are in Christ can be part of the Covenant promise.

In the New Covenant God makes with the house of Israel and Judah He writes His laws in our hearts and minds. Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10. God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, only Israel because in scripture Israel is synonymous with God’s people. I would not want to write myself out of the covenant and the promises. According to Paul, there is no Jew or Gentile if we are in Christ. Galatians 3:28-29 Colossians 3:11 Gentiles are grated in to God’s Israel Romans 11:11-24.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Matthew 7:21-23 comes to mind. Jesus is not teaching lawlessness (without law) and says the opposite, IF you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

Yes I know. This is prior to His death,resurrection and ascension. If one decides to reject Him, they are in bondage to the law. He was speaking to the Jews.
Blessings

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes I know. This is prior to His death,resurrection and ascension. If one decides to reject Him, they are in bondage to the law. He was speaking to the Jews.
Blessings

Jesus is not coming back just for the Jews. This is referring to His Second Coming and a warning to all. You can believe that, but Jesus says many will say Lord Lord, not Jews.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

Yes it did, Jesus declared that nothing that goes into a man defiles him. I am quite sure I know what you say in response, and I will be ready to reply

1000% agree with you. I don't see why people cherry pick this stuff out of the OT instructions. There are no dietary restrictions for us in the New Covenant. Even Paul wrote to Titus that the purity of man in Christ protects us from the spiritual impurity of such things.

To the pure, everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; in fact, both their mind and conscience are defiled. -Titus 1:15 (CSB)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

know this is a popular teaching that the laws only apply to Jews, but wouldn't that mean only the promises apply to Jews too?

No, it does not as a matter of fact, it was expanded to include the Gentiles because of their unbelief. The promises of salvation is for all humanity.

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1000% agree with you. I don't see why people cherry pick this stuff out of the OT instructions. There are no dietary restrictions for us in the New Covenant. Paul wrote to Titus:

To the pure, everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; in fact, both their mind and conscience are defiled. -Titus 1:15 (CSB)

I don't see where Paul is saying all foods are clean here. Paul appears to be talking about unbelieving, mind and conscience, not food. Isaiah 66:17 seems to be the final word on this subject.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, it does not as a matter of fact, it was expanded to include the Gentiles because of their unbelief. The promises of salvation is for all humanity.

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

You seem to be rejecting all these scriptures for some reason.

In the New Covenant God makes with the house of Israel and Judah He writes His laws in our hearts and minds. Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10. God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, only Israel because in scripture Israel is synonymous with God’s people. I would not want to write myself out of the covenant and the promises. According to Paul, there is no Jew or Gentile if we are in Christ. Galatians 3:28-29 Colossians 3:11 Gentiles are grated in to God’s Israel Romans 11:11-24.

There are not two gospels in scripture nor two salvations. We are all one in Christ for those who believe and follow His teachings.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Jesus is not coming back just for the Jews. This is referring to His Second Coming and a warning to all. You can believe that, but Jesus says many will say Lord Lord, not Jews.

That's fine. We have a bit of a disagreement. Thanks for engaging!

 

[CMDRExorcist]

I don't see where Paul is saying all foods are clean here. Paul appears to be talking about unbelieving, mind and conscience, not food. Isaiah 66:17 seems to be the final word on this subject.

For the Nation of Israel under the Old Covenant it might have been the "final word", but Isaiah is a prophetic book predicting the coming Messiah; not a dietary instruction manual for New Covenant believers. Those comments were consistent with the old law, but that's not a thing anymore.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For the Nation of Israel under the Old Covenant it might have been the "final word", but Isaiah is a prophetic book predicting the coming Messiah; not a dietary instruction manual for New Covenant believers.

There is no scripture that says the dietary laws ended. Our bodies have not changed, what is unhealthy when given the dietary laws is still unhealthy today. Isaiah 66:17 is when Jesus comes and what He says about those who eat unclean foods.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's fine. We have a bit of a disagreement. Thanks for engaging!

You're welcome! Until next time. God bless!

 

[expos4ever]

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

I agree that, on a literal reading at least, this says the law lasts until heaven and earth pass away. But there are 2 big problems:

1. There are many texts in the NT that make it clear that the Law is now behind us. In Ephesians 2, as just one example, the author argues that the Jew and the Gentile have been brought together by abolition of the law. And in Romans 7, Paul declares that we no longer serve the letter of the law.

2. There is strong Biblical, not to mention extra-Biblical, evidence that Jesus may been speaking metaphorically when He referred to the "heaven and earth passing away. A detailed supporting argument for this position is provided in post #320 here: It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians

 

[expos4ever]

What Paul is saying in Romans 7:7 is that the commandments of God remain as to what points out sin and later says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 so Paul is not contradicting himself, Jesus or the other disciples.

First, you are not dealing with the basic argument that was made by Friedrcich:

In the same context in which Paul says that we are not under the law anymore he writes: "I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”" Paul explicitely mentions a law from the 10 commandments as "the law" that we are not under anymore.

He is pointing what I have pointed out - the logic of the passage forces us - there are no ifs, and, or buts about it - to acknowledge that a law from the 10 has been included in the law that we have been released from and no longer serve. In fair debate, you have to deal with clear counterargument raised against your position. And, in this post at least, you are not doing so.

Second, you are not being faithful to what Paul actually writes when you conclude that Paul is saying say the Law remains - he never says this! He says that he learned what sin was from the Law, but that fact decidedly is not grounds for concluding the law remains in force.

Granted, he does speak of the Law in the present tense, but that, as I have argued elsewhere, there is a plausible explanation for this that does not require us to believe the 10 commandments are still in force.

 

[expos4ever]

According to the New Covenant, there is no Jew or Gentile if one is in Christ, so all the laws applies to everyone if one is grafted into the promises of God’s Israel.

Begging the question - you are assuming the very thing you need to make a case for, namely that the Law is still in effect. If it were true that the Law remained in force, then your logic would be sound - all laws would apply to everyone grafted in.

But there is another way that the Jew and the Gentile could be put on equal footing. And that is that the Law has done its job and is now retired. And, in fact, the author of Ephesians makes precisely this argument:

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace;

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Begging the question - you are assuming the very thing you need to make a case for, namely that the Law is still in effect. If it were true that the Law remained in force, then your logic would be sound - all laws would apply to everyone grafted in.

But there is another way that the Jew and the Gentile could be put on equal footing. And that is that the Law has done its job and is now retired. And, in fact, the author of Ephesians makes precisely this argument:

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace;

That's correct. And in addition to that I would point out in reply to

According to the New Covenant, there is no Jew or Gentile if one is in Christ, so all the laws applies to everyone if one is grafted into the promises of God’s Israel.

that it says "there is no Jew or Gentile" in Christ. If Paul wanted to say that we Christians are to obey the law he had written "we are all Jews" in Christ. Because the law was given to the Jews. Instead the Messianic Jews understood right away that the law was set apart, as we see with Peter in Galatians 2:14 and with Paul in Acts 21:17ff for example.

 

[Clare73]

The text does not support this assertion - where is there any direct or even indirect claim that the Decalogue was upheld:
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Do you believe the term "law" refers to the 10 only? There is no Biblical support for such a view, I suggest.

How does Ephesians 2:15 specify that the ceremonial laws, to the exclusions of other categories of laws, were abolished?
The author writes that that what ended was
"Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances"
How do you know the scope of this is restricted to ceremonial law?

Explained in my post #26:
Ceremonial laws (which kept the Jews separate from the Gentiles) were abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15), including circumcision.

The Decalogue was upheld (Romans 3:31) and placed on its right footing, as a means of sanctification, and fulfilled in Christ's law (Romans 13:8-10) of Matthew 22:37-40.

You appear to believe that since Jews kept the ceremonial law while Gentiles did not, and since the whole argument in that section is that whatever has been abolished puts Jew and Gentile on equal footing, the stuff that was abolished must be the ceremonial law.

However, all the Law was given to the Jews , including the 10 commandments, and none to the Gentiles. So I do not see your argument works.

The Decalogue was not abolished (Romans 3:31).

 

[trophy33]

Explained in my post #26:
Ceremonial laws (which kept the Jews separate from the Gentiles) were abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15), including circumcision.

I searched the biblehub.com for "ceremonial law" and nothing came up.

So, my questions are:
a) what you build this division of the law into cermonial and non-ceremonial upon
b) what exactly fall into the category and according to what key you decide that
c) are for example divorce laws or "hate your enemy" or "an eye for an eye" ceremonial or not?