Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

Guojing · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Adam and Eve allowed sin to have dominion over this world. But we will all be judged individually according to scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Think of the term judgement seat as the term "Bema seat" in the Greek.

The Bema Seat (see 2 Cor. 5:10), takes its name using imagery from Paul’s day. During the ancient Olympics, the judge sat along the finish line. His purpose was not to determine whether or not the participants actually ran the race. If they got that far, then they completed the course. But the Judge at the Bema seat determined how they came in, first, second, and so on, and he handed out the rewards. That is the imagery that the Bible gives us of the Believer’s Judgment. It is at the Judgment Seat of Life that Christ metes out the rewards not the punishments that we earn in life.

The punishments He has already dealt with by shedding his Blood on the Cross for all those who were willing to trust in Him. Your rewards are determined according to your works. That is the only place in which your works have any bearing on your eternity. Works won’t save you. Only faith in Christ’s completed Work on your behalf will. But your works do have a bearing as to your rewards.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 8, 2022

Guojing said:
Think of the term judgement seat as the term "Bema seat" in the Greek.

The Bema Seat (see 2 Cor. 5:10), takes its name using imagery from Paul’s day. During the ancient Olympics, the judge sat along the finish line. His purpose was not to determine whether or not the participants actually ran the race. If they got that far, then they completed the course. But the Judge at the Bema seat determined how they came in, first, second, and so on, and he handed out the rewards. That is the imagery that the Bible gives us of the Believer’s Judgment. It is at the Judgment Seat of Life that Christ metes out the rewards not the punishments that we earn in life.

The punishments He has already dealt with by shedding his Blood on the Cross for all those who were willing to trust in Him. Your rewards are determined according to your works. That is the only place in which your works have any bearing on your eternity. Works won’t save you. Only faith in Christ’s completed Work on your behalf will. But your works do have a bearing as to your rewards.

Not according to scripture:

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Revelation 22: 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

pasifika · Apr 8, 2022

expos4ever said:
It is not that simple, methinks.

There is something I have not brought up yet, although I believe at least one other poster has hinted at this. I suspect that the view I am about to articulate will not be popular even among those who have hitherto agreed with my view that the Law of Moses is "retired".

Paul believes that the Law of Mose actually makes the Jew more sinful than they would have been in the absence of the Law:

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

Note Paul's wording - the Law produced covetousness, not that it merely revealed covetousness.

There is a lot more that could be said in defence of this admittedly controversial claim. For the moment, I would caution readers as follows: watch out for when people bend the meaning of words in order to make a text fit with their point of view. Example: when people take Paul's statement that we no longer serve according to the Law of Moses and mangle it into a claim that we are no longer judged by the Law of Moses.

If Paul had meant to say that the Law merely revealed sin, he would have said so. It is critical to note that the fact that Paul indeed elsewhere says the Law also reveals sin does not, repeat does not, justify changing his wording here where he clearly claims that the law actually empowers sinful impulses. Both, of course, can be true.

Hello, it Sin who produced covetousnes as in Romans 7:8

SabbathBlessings · Apr 8, 2022

pasifika said:
Hello, it Sin who produced covetousnes as in Romans 7:8

Sinners are those who breaks God’s laws. 1 John 3:4

Guojing · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Not according to scripture:

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Revelation 22: 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

As I stated, you have to distinguish between the nation of Israel, and the Body of Christ, Revelation is written to Israel.

As for your usage of Romans 6:16, you must link it back to the preceding chapter 5, Romans 5:12-19. The obedience in Romans 6:16 is Christ's obedience, not yours. The sin leading to death is Adam's sin, and not yours too.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 8, 2022

Guojing said:
As I stated, you have to distinguish between the nation of Israel, and the Body of Christ, Revelation is written to Israel.

As for your usage of Romans 6:16, you must link it back to the preceding chapter 5, Romans 5:12-19. The obedience in Romans 6:16 is Christ's obedience, not yours. The sin leading to death is Adam's sin, and not yours too.

Adams sin is Adams sin, my sin is mine and yours is yours. We will all be judged as individuals not as a group or on a sliding scale. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Sadly a lot of people think the parts of the Bible they don’t want to obey “doesn’t apply to them”. The truth is, God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, only with Israel. Israel is synonymous with “God’s people” which is why Gentiles are grafted into God’s Israel and are part of the promise, if in Christ.Galatians 3:26-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

It’s late my time, God bless all!

Guojing · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Adams sin is Adams sin, my sin is mine and yours is yours. We will all be judged as individuals not as a group or on a sliding scale.

Sadly a lot of people think the parts of the Bible they don’t want to obey “doesn’t apply to them”. The truth is, God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, only with Israel. Israel is synonymous with “God’s people” which is why Gentiles are grafted into God’s Israel and are part of the promise, if in Christ.

It’s late my time, God bless all!

Do you understand what Romans 5:13 is stating?

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

God did not give any commandments between Adam and Moses, the law was only given during Moses time. There is this principle that, until the law was given, sin could not be held against us . Adam's sin was held against him because he broke the only commandment there was, not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

The descendants after him could not have eaten from the same tree, since the Garden of Eden was no longer accessible. Yet, they all died physical death, even though they live to an age far beyond all of us, over 900 years.

Why did they die physically even though their sinful actions was not held against them? The only answer is because of Adam's sin.

pasifika · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Sinners are those who breaks God’s laws. 1 John 3:4

We both falls under that category..Romans 3

SabbathBlessings · Apr 8, 2022

Guojing said:
Do you understand what Romans 5:13 is stating?

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

God did not give any commandments between Adam and Moses, the law was only given during Moses time. There is this principle that, until the law was given, sin could not be held against us . Adam's sin was held against him because he broke the only commandment there was, not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

The descendants after him could not have eaten from the same tree, since the Garden of Eden was no longer accessible. Yet, they all died physical death, even though they live to an age far beyond all of us, over 900 years.

Why did they die physically even though their sinful actions was not held against them? The only answer is because of Adam's sin.

Yes, I understand completely.

Where there is no law there is no sin. The law started in heaven, because Lucifer sinned. The law was in Eden, because Adam and Eve sinned. Cain sinned because he committed murder.

God’s Kingdom has laws Revelation 11:19 and God personally wrote His law with His own finger, He personally spoke His law with His own voice. His law was placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of His Temple where Christ dwells and it is what we will all be judged on according to James. James 2:10-12.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 8, 2022

pasifika said:
We both falls under that category..Romans 3

Faith is not separated from obedience. Faith leads to obedience. How do you have faith in God, but not enough faith to obey?

Which is why the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 to the very end, the Second Coming of Jesus. Revelation 22:14-15.

Night all!

Guojing · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes, I understand completely.

Where there is no law there is no sin. The law started in heaven, because Lucifer sinned. The law was in Eden, because Adam and Eve sinned. Cain sinned because he committed murder.

The only Law given at the Garden was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If Paul was correct in Romans 5:13, sin was not imputed on Cain for the murder.

pasifika · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Adams sin is Adams sin, my sin is mine and yours is yours. We will all be judged as individuals not as a group or on a sliding scale. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Sadly a lot of people think the parts of the Bible they don’t want to obey “doesn’t apply to them”. The truth is, God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, only with Israel. Israel is synonymous with “God’s people” which is why Gentiles are grafted into God’s Israel and are part of the promise, if in Christ.Galatians 3:26-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

It’s late my time, God bless all!

And that's the purpose of the Law to judge us w

SabbathBlessings said:
Faith is not separated from obedience. Faith leads to obedience. How do you have faith in God, but not enough faith to obey?

Which is why the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 to the very end, the Second Coming of Jesus. Revelation 22:14-15.

Night all!

Faith is obedience..book of Romans

SabbathBlessings · Apr 8, 2022

Guojing said:
The only Law given at the Garden was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If Paul was correct in Romans 5:13, sin was not imputed on Cain for the murder.

Adam and Eve sinned because they placed the devil above God breaking commandment #1 You shall have no other gods before Me. Exodus 20:3

When Eve choose to believe the devil over God, they placed satan over God. A god is anything you place above God.

Cain was condemned for his sin and I doubt he will be in heaven, there is no scripture showing he repented.

Paul is correct, where there is no law there is no sin. The law has been from the very beginning and continues until Jesus comes. Matthew 7:21-23 regardless if one wants to accept this or not. The commandments of God are not meant to be grievous 1 John 5:3 and keeping them is love to God. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3

God bless.

Guojing · Apr 8, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Adam and Eve sinned because they placed the devil above God breaking commandment #1 You shall have no other gods before Me. Exodus 20:3

When Eve choose to believe the devil over God, they placed satan over God. A god is anything you place above God.

Cain was condemned for his sin and I doubt he will be in heaven, there is no scripture showing he repented.

Paul is correct, where there is no law there is no sin. The law has been from the very beginning and continues until Jesus comes. Matthew 7:21-23 regardless if one wants to accept this or not. The commandments of God are not meant to be grievous 1 John 5:3 and keeping them is love to God. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3

God bless.

I didn't say Cain was in heaven

expos4ever · Apr 9, 2022

pasifika said:
Hello, it Sin who produced covetousnes as in Romans 7:8

Not the whole story - Paul has already told us that the Law produced the sin. And in the very verse you refer to, Paul implicates the Law as effectively enabling sin to produce covetousness.

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Like I said before I would not want to write myself out of God’s Covenant promise only made with Israel, but Gentiles are grafted in if in Christ. This is a wonderful promise.

Yes, he is the living fulfillment and offers more to gentiles than you can believe.

Throwing scripture back and forth is useless. Their full context and intent needs to be understood. That will be challenging for most people. Though I am Catholic I am still cautious and critical of Catholic teaching. Try it with SDA. Be free.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 9, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
Try it with SDA. Be free.

I have never once quoted anything but scripture, but this is a common argument one seems to make when they disagree with what is written in scriptures. The Truth will set us free John 8:32 which is why we are called to worship in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and why scriptures should be our only guide.

Your post didn’t address the scriptures I posted, but that’s okay. We will have to agree to disagree. God bless.

Leaf473 · Apr 9, 2022

Guojing said:
I already stated no, we in the Body of Christ are free from the Law, as explained by Paul, and James himself in Acts 21:25.

I was just explaining that Peter, James and John, when you read their instructions to the nation of Israel in their individual letters, and how they behave in Acts, they continue to follow the Law and insist that its a requirement for Israel.

You cannot get salvation by faith alone in the death burial resurrection of Christ, nor Jews and gentiles being equal in the same body, nor the rapture of the Body of Christ, anywhere in the letters of James, Peter and John.

The Holy Spirit did not want them to write about those, he wanted them to write doctrine for the nation of Israel during Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation.

You can find them in 1 Peter 4

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved, which is not what Paul would instruct us in the Body of Christ.

Next John

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

Contrast to Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; and 1 John 2 and 3

Thank you for the information

When you talk about Peter, James and John writing instructions to the nation of Israel, do you mean they were writing to believers or unbelievers within the nation of Israel? Or both?

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 9, 2022

People often read the Bible as if it is addressed to them personally. That is sometimes fine for inspiration. But without context we come away with quotes pointing all kinds of directions and we sit there trying to make sense of it all and often disagree. All I ask is that before quoting scripture, as if it proves whatever point you want to make, ask yourself who the intended audience is. Especially in the early Christian church and the Law. It makes a big difference.

expos4ever · Apr 9, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
It's always best to obey on His terms, not on ours (which laws we are okay with).

This is another strawman - no one is saying this.

Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

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