Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[expos4ever]

My simple point is that, at the book of Acts, no Jews from the nation of Israel would have thought that any of the Law of Moses was abolished.

Paul certainly believes the law of Moses were abolished. And, again, the fact some Jews did not believe it was abolished is certainly not evidence that it was not, in fact, abolished.

 

[expos4ever]

Just a few comments. . .

Love is fulfilled by our obedience to God's law,

It is not that simple, methinks.

There is something I have not brought up yet, although I believe at least one other poster has hinted at this. I suspect that the view I am about to articulate will not be popular even among those who have hitherto agreed with my view that the Law of Moses is "retired".

Paul believes that the Law of Mose actually makes the Jew more sinful than they would have been in the absence of the Law:

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

Note Paul's wording - the Law produced covetousness, not that it merely revealed covetousness.

There is a lot more that could be said in defence of this admittedly controversial claim. For the moment, I would caution readers as follows: watch out for when people bend the meaning of words in order to make a text fit with their point of view. Example: when people take Paul's statement that we no longer serve according to the Law of Moses and mangle it into a claim that we are no longer judged by the Law of Moses.

If Paul had meant to say that the Law merely revealed sin, he would have said so. It is critical to note that the fact that Paul indeed elsewhere says the Law also reveals sin does not, repeat does not, justify changing his wording here where he clearly claims that the law actually empowers sinful impulses. Both, of course, can be true.

 

[fhansen]

This thread is not intended to debate the 4th commandment specifically so please do not discuss/debate the Sabbath in this thread as it is not allowed per the forum guidelines. The intent of this thread is to look at what laws if any ended at the cross.


I think it’s important to note that God separated His laws from the very beginning. Many want to lump all laws and commandments as one, when God did not. This is an important distinction because once we get to the New Testament we see what exactly ended when Christ became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins we won’t make the mistake of claiming “all laws” ended, when they did not.

Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Nehemiah 9:13
“You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.


2 Chronicles 33:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

So here we have ordinances, law, statues and commandments. And Moses gave the ordinances by his “hand”.

When we get to the New Covenant God writes His laws in our hearts and mind- so they didn’t end in the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 Hebrews 8:10-12

I hope and pray for those seeking to do the will of God if you are going to write out obeying God’s commandments you would have clear scripture stating so, if one is seeking to do the will of God and not our own.

I have yet to see one verse that says when Jesus died all laws have ended at the cross which some teach.

This is what ended from scriptures:

Col 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

God’s Ten Commandments is God-written- the finger of God Exodus 31:18 and this includes Ten Commandments Exodus 34:28 not nine or eight. God’s law is holy, just and good Romans 7:12 and not grievous 1 John 5:3

What ended was only the law of Moses contained in ordinances. Eph 2:15 that was handwritten not God-written by Moses 1 Cor 33:8

When Jesus died He became our perfect sacrifice for sins, so we no longer are required to sacrifice blood and food offerings as shown in Hebrews 10 because Jesus took the place.

Does this mean that all laws have ended? Of course not and shown throughout the entire scripture. Lawlessness (without law) in unbiblical. The definition of sin is lawlessness 1 John 3:4 and the law just points out sin so we know what to keep. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and breaking one of the commandments is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12

Jesus did not come to destroy God’s law He came to magnify (make greater not lesser). Isaiah 42:21 Matthew 5:17-30 He showed us an the example how to live our lives (without sin)

1 Peter 2: 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 “Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”

The scripture states the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. John 14:26 We receive the Holy Spirit to convict us of sins (lawlessness) John 16:8 (those who have not harden their hearts). Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit when we want to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 so we don’t have to do it on our own and the Spirit is given when we obey. Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32 so if you want to truly understand scripture we need to obey and the Holy Spirit will be our guide to teach us all things. The Holy Spirit will never guide you away from God’s law. That spirit does not come from God.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Who do you think wants us to sin (lawlessness- without law-breaking God’s law). Scripture tells us:

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

I hope those seeking God in Truth and Spirit which is how we are called to worship Him John 4:23-24 will prayerfully read the scriptures in this post and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth and ask God to replace our will, for His will, because when Jesus comes we don’t want to hear these words…

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(Without law).

Christ came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, to condemn sin in the flesh so that we may die to the flesh and fulfill the law as well but the right way now, in union with Him, by grace, by the Spirit, through the love He "pours out into our hearts" which overcomes sin and fulfulls the law by its nature.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Christ came to fulfill the law, to condemn sin in the flesh so that we may die to the flesh and fulfill the law as well but the right way mow, in union with Him, by grace, by the Spirit, through the love He pours out into our hearts which overcomes sin and fulfulls the law by its nature.

That would make the post you are replying be in contradiction. Fulfill does not mean destroy and the complete opposite of what Jesus said. Matthew 5:17. Fulfill means to fill-full. When one fulfills their marriage vows does that mean they are keeping it or free to commit adultery? It means to keep which is why Jesus goes on to say those who keep the commandments will be called great, but those who don't will be "least in heaven". I don't think least means you will be there, but we have free will to find out. . .

 

[fhansen]

That would make the post you are replying be in contradiction. Fulfill does not mean destroy and the complete opposite of what Jesus said. Matthew 5:17. Fulfill means to fill-full. When one fulfills their marriage vows does that mean they are keeping it or free to commit adultery? It means to keep which is why Jesus goes on to say those who keep the commandments will be called great, but those who don't will be "least in heaven". I don't think least means you will be there, but we have free will to find out. . .

My post, edited before I read this, includes the fact that Jesus came, again, to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. And nothing in the post contradicted what you write here anyway. We must fullfill it too. One who loves with His love does not commit adultery, whether they've heard the law or not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My post, edited before I read this, includes the fact that Jesus came, again, to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. And nothing in the post contradicted what you write here anyway. We must fullfill it too. One who loves with His love does not commit adultery, whether they've heard the law or not.

We fulfill, when we obey, not disobey.

The good news is we have access to bibles, so we do know God's law. It's always best to obey on His terms, not on ours (which laws we are okay with).

 

[fhansen]

We fulfill, when we obey, not disobey.

Um...as I said.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Um...as I said.

Ok, I see that. Most use "fulfill" to mean as the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

 

[expos4ever]

About what it means to "fulfill".

To fulfill "X" can, repeat, can entail the retirement of X.

It is incorrect logic to argue that since Jesus He came to fulfill the Law, this means the Law is therefore still in force.

Example: If I graduate with a Bachelor's degree, I have "fulfilled" my goal in going to college. Do I stay at college after getting the degree? Of course not.

 

[fhansen]

Ok, I see that. Most use "fulfill" to mean as the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

While we may have an issue with how one of the laws is fulfilled, the ancient churches have unanimously upheld the teaching that the ten commandments are obligatory.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

While we may have an issue with how one of the laws is fulfilled, the ancient churches have unanimously upheld the teaching that the ten commandments are obligatory.

I can agree with this statement for the most part, but I think we should always go with scriptures over churches, but that's a whole other discussion.

I am sorry I misunderstood your post earlier. I appreciate your comments.

God bless!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

A flower fulfills the potential of the seed though it looks nothing like it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

A flower fulfills the potential of the seed though it looks nothing like it.

A flower when nurtured with proper food, water and sunlight fulfills its blooms exactly how God intended when He created it. Same goes for us, when we are nurtured through and follow His Word His Spirit leads us to full bloom, the way God intended for us. Walking in Christ in obedience, which the Spirit is given. John 14:15-18, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32

 

[Clare73]

Just a few comments. . .

Love is fulfilled by our obedience to God's law, which I think is made clear by the words of Jesus Himself and God.

Exodus 20:6 - Right in the Ten Commandments- showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments Exodus 20:6
Jesus repeated verbatim If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15
John repeated the same For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3
I don't see any way around separating that love is defined by our obedience to God's commandments written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10

Which reconciles with God's last day saints (saved)

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why would the devil care if God's saints keep the commandments of God if they all ended at the cross? For every Truth, there is the devil's counterfeit, so who really wants us to trample on God's law? Delete a commandments or two. Certainly not the Creator of all things who wrote it!

Revelation 14 is calling us back to worship the Creator- traditions have replaced the commandments of God, but we are to worship God in both Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24 Jesus warns us of this very thing. Matthew 15:3-9

Revelation 14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” Reference to Creation Genesis 2:1-3

God saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12. I do not believe God's saints are only Jews but those who are in Christ. Galatians 3:28-29

The commandments will be kept by some right until the Second Coming of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

What a wonderful promise. The commandments of God are not meant to be burdensome 1 John 5:3 but they are meant to be kept through love, which is what walking in the Spirit is all about.

God bless

They are counted as kept perfectly in Biblical loving of God and of neighbor.

With you, love is keeping the commandments, whereas
in the NT, love is counted as keeping (fulfillment of) the commandments perfectly (Romans 13:8-10).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

They are counted as kept perfectly in Biblical loving of God and of neighbor.

With you, love is keeping the commandments, whereas
in the NT, love is counted as keeping (fulfilling) the commandments (Romans 13:8-10).

It's not me, Jesus said it with His own lips.

If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

John said it too For this IS the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

Quoted right from the Ten, showing mercy to those who love Me, and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6

Love is counted when you keep (fulfill) the commandments, not breaking them, that is not love according to scripture. This is what that is:

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

 

[Clare73]

My simple point is that, at the book of Acts, no Jews from the nation of Israel would have thought that any of the Law of Moses was abolished.

See Acts 15, where the contingent from Jerusalem required only circumcision, not the whole law.

 

[Clare73]

It's not me, Jesus said it with His own lips.

If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

You should know better than to set Jesus against himself along with the Apostle Paul in
Matthew 22:37-40 and Romans 13:8-10.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You should know better than to set Jesus against himself along with the Apostle Paul in
Matthew 22:37-40 and Romans 13:8-10.

So you're saying when Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments, that means the opposite? Fulfilling the commandments, means breaking, not keeping like Jesus , God and the apostles so plainly stated?

If you love Me, keep, [break] My commandments.

For this IS the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

Quoted right from the Ten, showing mercy to those who love Me, and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6

Love should be leading us to obedience, not disobedience.

I'll stick with the scriptures, we should not be altering one Word. Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

We can't discuss the Sabbath here per the forum guidelines- I have reminded you a few time.

Adventists follows the commandments because it is written.

Yes, Written to the Jews.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, Written to the Jews.

You keep saying this, despite scripture showing Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant Promise. I would not want to write myself out of the covenant, but we have free will.