Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Clare73]

You ignored the last verse of each of the 2 passages.

My explanation is consistent with the last two verses, necessarily including them.

 

[Clare73]

And?
They are referring to Passover.
Exodus 12:48-49 related only to Passover.
Gentile converts were not required to observe Passover, but if they wished to do so, they had to be circumcised.

Numbers 9:13-14 related only to Hebrews (the circumcised), who were required to celebrate Passover, and without a legitimate reason for not doing so, were to be cut off from their people.
While Acts 15:1 states that circumcision (the sign of the covenant) was necessary for salvation, not the Passover.

Well actually it states:
Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.
which led to the council outcome.

Not seeing where the difference is. . .are you referring to my parenthetical being different. . .which is why it was in parentheses?

What am I missing here?

 

[Guojing]

My explanation is consistent with the last two verses, necessarily including them.

Statement without explanation.

 

[Clare73]

And?
They are referring to Passover.
Exodus 12:48-49 related only to Passover.
Gentile converts were not required to observe Passover, but if they wished to do so, they had to be circumcised.
Numbers 9:13-14 related only to Hebrews (the circumcised), who were required to celebrate Passover, and without a legitimate reason for not doing so, were to be cut off from their people.
While Acts 15:1 states that circumcision (the sign of the covenant) was necessary for salvation, not for the Passover.

Statement without explanation.

Okay. . .what in those verses disagrees with what I stated?

 

[Guojing]

Oay. . .what in those verses disagrees with what I stated?

If there is ONE law for both Jews of the nation of Israel and gentiles who joined the nation of Israel, the same requirements of the Law would apply to both.

No such thing as "only apply to Jews, gentiles are not required".

 

[Leaf473]

If there is ONE law for both Jews of the nation of Israel and gentiles who joined the nation of Israel, the same requirements of the Law would apply to both.

No such thing as "only apply to Jews, gentiles are not required".

So Guojing, my man (or woman),
what is your position regarding the law and Christians today?

Do you believe we are to keep all of the law of Moses? Just some part of it? Is there any difference between Jewish believers and gentile believers regarding the law?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Not seeing where the difference is. . .are you referring to my parenthetical being different. . .which is why it was in parentheses?

The way you posted it seemed as though supporting circumcision for gentiles. We know that was not the decided outcome of the dispute.

 

[Clare73]

If there is ONE law for both Jews of the nation of Israel and gentiles who joined the nation of Israel, the same requirements of the Law would apply to both.

The same requirement of the law for Passover (i.e., circumcision) does apply to both Hebrew and alien living in Israel.

No such thing as "only apply to Jews, gentiles are not required".

Gentiles were not required to observe the Passover: "An alien among you who wants to celebrate the LORD'S Passover" (Genesis 12:48), not who is required to.
Mandatory observance of Passover "applied only to the Jews, aliens among them were not required."

Passover could be eaten only by those consecrated to the Lord in covenant because only for them could it have its full covenant application (Genesis 17:9-14). Therefore, any alien among them who wanted to observe Passover had to be circumcised to do so.

Exodus 12:49 - "The same law (i.e., no uncircumcised male may eat of the Passover, Exodus 12:48) applies to the native-born and to the alien among you."

Numbers 9:14 - "An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the Lord's Passover must do so in accordance with its rules and regulations (i.e., circumcision). You must have the same regulations (i.e., circumcision) for the alien and the native-born."

I am not seeing what your issue is here.
The one law (i.e., circumcision is required to eat Passover) does apply to both Israel and the aliens living among them.

Do you feel you understand Israel and the OT law well enough to adequately discuss it, and more importantly, to correctly apply it?

 

[Clare73]

The way you posted it seemed as though supporting circumcision for gentiles. We know that was not the decided outcome of the dispute.

Yes, the law required circumcision of those Gentiles who wanted (but were not required) to eat the Passover.

The issue in Acts was not Passover, it was requiring circumcision of NT Gentiles for salvation.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Yes, the law required circumcision of those Gentiles who wanted (but were not required) to eat the Passover.

The issue in Acts was not Passover, it was requiring circumcision of NT Gentiles for salvation.

got it.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Not "end" but "extend and fulfill", This guy says:

The Law of Moses and the Christian

 

[Clare73]

Not "end" but "extend and fulfill", This guy says:

The Law of Moses and the Christian

What do the Scriptures say?

 

[Guojing]

So Guojing, my man (or woman),
what is your position regarding the law and Christians today?

Do you believe we are to keep all of the law of Moses? Just some part of it? Is there any difference between Jewish believers and gentile believers regarding the law?

I already stated no, we in the Body of Christ are free from the Law, as explained by Paul, and James himself in Acts 21:25.

I was just explaining that Peter, James and John, when you read their instructions to the nation of Israel in their individual letters, and how they behave in Acts, they continue to follow the Law and insist that its a requirement for Israel.

You cannot get salvation by faith alone in the death burial resurrection of Christ, nor Jews and gentiles being equal in the same body, nor the rapture of the Body of Christ, anywhere in the letters of James, Peter and John.

The Holy Spirit did not want them to write about those, he wanted them to write doctrine for the nation of Israel during Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation.

You can find them in 1 Peter 4

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved, which is not what Paul would instruct us in the Body of Christ.

Next John

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

Contrast to Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; and 1 John 2 and 3

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I already stated no, we in the Body of Christ are free from the Law, as explained by Paul, and James himself in Acts 21:25.

I was just explaining that Peter, James and John, when you read their instructions to the nation of Israel in their individual letters, and how they behave in Acts, they continue to follow the Law and insist that its a requirement for Israel.

You cannot get salvation by faith alone in the death burial resurrection of Christ, nor Jews and gentiles being equal in the same body, nor the rapture of the Body of Christ, anywhere in the letters of James, Peter and John.

The Holy Spirit did not want them to write about those, he wanted them to write doctrine for the nation of Israel during Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation.

You can find them in 1 Peter 4

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved, which is not what Paul would instruct us in the Body of Christ.

Next John

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

Contrast to Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; and 1 John 2 and 3

You seem to be forgetting that the transgression of the law is sin. Jesus does not want us to sin, which means there is a law, the opposite of what is being taught here.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law of God points out sin.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7&version=NKJV
According to James you break one commandment you break them all quoting directly from the Ten Commandments:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

It’s not up to us to define what the law (sin when breaking) is, because God did and His law is written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting it. Keeping the commandments is something the saints (saved ones) do up until Jesus comes. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 5:17-19

Perhaps someone doesn’t understand some of the writing of Paul who sums up what matters and that is keeping God’s commandments 1 Cor 7:19, which reconciles with Jesus and the other apostles. Jesus does not teach lawlessness (without law).

 

[Guojing]

You seem to be forgetting that the transgression of the law is sin. Jesus does not want us to sin, which means there is a law, the opposite of what is being taught here.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law of God points out sin.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
According to James you break one commandment you break them all quoting directly from the Ten Commandments:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

It’s not up to us to define what the law (sin when breaking) is, because God did and His law is written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting it. Keeping the commandments is something the saints (saved ones) do up until Jesus comes. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 5:17-19

Perhaps someone doesn’t understand some of the writing of Paul who sums up what matters and that is keeping God’s commandments 1 Cor 7:19, which reconciles with Jesus and the other apostles. Jesus does not teach lawlessness (without law).

As I stated, James, Peter and John, are writing to the nation of Israel. Read James 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:1 to be clear about this.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As I stated, James, Peter and John, are writing to the nation of Israel. Read James 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:1 to be clear about this.

Sin is sin no matter who they are talking to.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What do the Scriptures say?

It depends on if it is addressed to the nation of Israel or Gentiles. Different communities with different histories, needs . relationships with God and therefore also different expectations.

Be open to what Guojing has to say and set aside your SDA talking points.

 

[Guojing]

Sin is sin no matter who they are talking to.

If you read what Paul taught us in Romans 5:12-19, the problem with sin is not our individual sins, but rather the sin of Adam's disobedience at the Garden.

Once we received Jesus's gift of righteousness, the sin problem, which we inherited from Adam, is forever done away with.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It depends on if it is addressed to the nation of Israel or Gentiles. Different communities with different histories, needs . relationships with God and therefore also different expectations.

Be open to what Guojing has to say and set aside your SDA talking points.

Paul seems to think something different:

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Like I said before I would not want to write myself out of God’s Covenant promise only made with Israel, but Gentiles are grafted in if in Christ. This is a wonderful promise.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If you read what Paul taught us in Romans 5:12-19, the problem with sin is not our individual sins, but rather the sin of Adam's disobedience at the Garden.

Once we received Jesus's gift of righteousness, the sin problem, which we inherited from Adam, is forever done away with.

Adam and Eve allowed sin to have dominion over this world. But we will all be judged individually according to scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

There is no scripture that says we can be saved by willfully sinning without seeking repentance for our sins. Hebrews 10:26-30 True repentance means turning from sin and walking in Christ in obedience and Jesus provides us the Holy Spirit when we obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32. If we stumble we have an Advocate with Jesus who is just to forgive us of our sins when we repent. We should not be comfortable sinning (breaking God’s law) because sin as you pointed out does not come from Jesus.