Did Cain Know??

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

While in Sunday's preaching service last week and again in this weeks Sunday school. The idea that Cain knew that his offering was not the "right kind" that God wanted. In reading the account in Gen 4, I can not find how one comes to this conclusion.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


So, Did Cain Know?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ZiSunka]

Cain knew. He gave God the "fruit of the ground," you know, the moldy apples that fall off the tree because they are overripe or full of bugs. Nice gift to give someone you love, huh?

But Abel took the very best of his flock, the firstlings, and gave those to God.

Why wouldn't God tell Cain his offering wasn't good enough? Which offering would you love more--a beautiful, perfect puppy or a basket of rotten tomatoes?

 

[BBAS 64]

Cain knew. He gave God the "fruit of the ground," you know, the moldy apples that fall off the tree because they are overripe or full of bugs. Nice gift to give someone you love, huh?

But Abel took the very best of his flock, the firstlings, and gave those to God.

Why wouldn't God tell Cain his offering wasn't good enough? Which offering would you love more--a beautiful, perfect puppy or a basket of rotten tomatoes?

Good Day, Lambslove



Did you mean "off the ground"?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ZiSunka]

Ever plant a garden or grow fruit? Every garden has "fruit of the ground," meaning the fruit that falls off the vine/tree/bush because it is overripe or buggy or moldy or whatever. It's the bad fruit that generally is either thrown into the compost heap or sometimes, if it isn't too awful, is pressed into juice and made into wine. It's the stuff that is leftover when all the edible food is harvested and stored away.

Around here, gardeners often take some of their harvest to the local soup kitchens and food pantries to share with the poor. It's a way of sharing God's gift of bounty, so to speak. The food pantries and kitchens won't take "fruit of the ground" because it is inedible, it's garbage not food. Sometimes there will be little bits that are okay, but mostly it's a bagful of compost waiting to be thrown into the heap. Even the poorest of the poor can't make a meal out of ground fruit.

Cain didn't give God his best, he gave his leftovers. After he had stored away the good stuff so he could be sure he would eat all winter, he gave God the icky stuff off the ground in his garden. It showed a big lack of faith in God, a lack of God's provision for him, because he filled his storage up because he didn't trust God to give him more good stuff, enough to last all winter.

We're not a lot different, although our fruit might be a little different. We pay the cable bill, the car payment, the house payment, the rent, the credit cards and the utilities first, then give God whatever we have leftover in our checking account. We are giving God the 21st century version of "fruit of the ground."

 

[Matthan]

While I believe LL is right, there is anotehr school of thought that Cain just grabbed some of his produce, but not his best produce. Able brought the first born of his livestock, as opposed to keeping them to increase his herds and bringing the less desirable livestock to the Lord.

Their mental states regarding their sacrifice to God were exactly opposite to each other.

Matthan <J><

 

[ZiSunka]

Well, not the firstborn, but the firstlings, the very best of the flock. Abel gave God the best, knowing that God would replenish his livestock with good sheep and he would be out nothing. Cain thought that offering the best stuff to God was just throwing it away and that the best would be wasted on God. I kinda think it shows that Cain didn't even really believe in God.

 

[Lockheed]

Errr..... there is nothing in the text to suggest that Cain also didn't give of the best of his fruits/veggies, however what the text DOES ACTUALLY SAY is important:

"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil."

Cain "worked the soil", he's a farmer. The offering was vegtables/fruits, no indication of their being modly or anything like that.

"3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD . 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor..."

Two points, "fruits of the soil" simply refers to vegetables. Cain's offering required his own sweat, his own work to produce, from that which God said: "Cursed is the ground because of you through painful toil you will eat of it" (Gen 3:17). In a way it was his own labors he was offering. Green plants and the like were originally given for men and the animals to eat, not as an offering to God. Able however brought fat portions of the firstborn of his flock. While able certainly tended the sheep, their growth and health is entirely left to God's grace. So in a way, Cain gave his own efforts, while Able gave of God's grace.

Second point, God had already expressed what the proper offering was:

Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

In order to cover the shame of Adam and Eve, God slew an animal and made garments for them to typify the only covering for sin, the spotless lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Christ. God displayed by His shedding blood in Eden what was required in offerings to Him and undoubtedly Adam and Eve told their offspring of this fact. And scripture doesn't tell us how, or even if cain knew, Cain's intention was to present his own offering, of his own design. Only later, in the Law, does God command the giving of grain offerings. And even then it is not the same kind of sacrifice.

So there are basically three pts, 1) Cain's attitude, 2) Cain's offering, 3) Cain's efforts... all were in opposition to God.

 

[Lockheed]

"I kinda think it shows that Cain didn't even really believe in God."

Cain believedin God, but he didn't have faith in God, he trusted his own efforts to make him right before God.

 

[Maeyken]

So, if Cain was a farmer, what *should* he have given to God? It sounds as though produce was not acceptable, but what else did he have to give as an offering?

 

[Lockheed]

So, if Cain was a farmer, what *should* he have given to God? It sounds as though produce was not acceptable, but what else did he have to give as an offering?

His brother had a flock... when the people of Israel sinned they brought of theirt own flocks or purchased an animal, Cain could have purchased one from his brother, or even asked for one. Surely Abel would have given it. Cain is representative of everyone who, throughout history, want to approach God on their terms.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Cain knew. He gave God the "fruit of the ground," you know, the moldy apples that fall off the tree because they are overripe or full of bugs. Nice gift to give someone you love, huh?

But Abel took the very best of his flock, the firstlings, and gave those to God.

Why wouldn't God tell Cain his offering wasn't good enough? Which offering would you love more--a beautiful, perfect puppy or a basket of rotten tomatoes?

Lamb is sooooooooo close, in a nutshell, this is what I have learned.


The reason why Cains offering was not accepted is because it came from the ground which was cursed by God earlier.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Cain knew that the ground was cursed.

GEL

 

[ZiSunka]

Sigh, this passage gets misinterpretted to mean that God doesn't like farming too often. The laws hadn't been handed down yet, so there is no indication that God required a lamb for an offering at that time. People didn't just offer their lambs or other livestock, they offered all sorts of produce too.

It's even worse than Cain wanting to approach God on his own terms (although he certainly did that), it's that he begrudged God the very best he had to offer. Cain failed to realize that the fruits came from God and that God deserved the best, not the leftovers.

Even later when the law was instituted, God still wanted them to make tithes and offerings from their produce, so Lockheed's theory gets blown out of the water. God accepted all the vegetable and fruit offerings, not just the lambs.

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Notice that the words "fruit of the ground" aren't used here, but seed of the land and fruit of the trees. That's because fruit of the ground really does mean the fruit ON the ground, not just produce grown in soil. God doesn't want the fruit of the ground, he wants the seeds of the land and the fruit of the tree, the fruits picked off the tree, not the ground.


It all belongs to God, the lambs, the herbs, everything. When we give God our best, he accepts it. When we give him our leftovers, he rejects them. We, like Cain, can get mad about it, but God is right, he deserves our best.

 

[MbiaJc]

Good Day, All

While in Sunday's preaching service last week and again in this weeks Sunday school. The idea that Cain knew that his offering was not the "right kind" that God wanted. In reading the account in Gen 4, I can not find how one comes to this conclusion.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


So, Did Cain Know?

Peace to u,

Bill

Yes Cain knew that God required a "Blood" sacerfice for sin. For he knew what had happened to his mother and father in the Garden. That God had killed an animal to get its skin for a covering of his father and mothers sin. Same as Abel knew. Even a "Farmer" has animals for meat and milk. Cain is like so many today, they have their own openions not caring what the Bible says, even thoe they know what it says.

 

[ZiSunka]

Yes Cain knew that God required a "Blood" sacerfice for sin. For he knew what had happened to his mother and father in the Garden. That God had killed an animal to get its skin for a covering of his father and mothers sin. Same as Abel knew. Even a "Farmer" has animals for meat and milk. Cain is like so many today, they have their own openions not caring what the Bible says, even thoe they know what it says.

Show me where in the Bible it says that Cain was aware that God would require blood for a sin offering, or that Cain and Abel were making a sin offering.

You are merely making a persumption on the something the Bible doesn't say, and that is very, very dangerous ground. It is not okay to make a presumption.

And every farmer doesn't have animals for milk and meat. I know many row crop farmers who keep no animals at all. That would seem to be the case for Cain, since it is said he was a tiller of the soil but Abel was a keeper of sheep. Again, you are merely making a presumption of something the Bible doesn't report.

The most obvious answer is usually correct, and if you have to make a whole bunch of presumptions to make an idea make sense, it probably is the wrong answer.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

The most obvious answer is usually correct, and if you have to make a whole bunch of presumptions to make an idea make sense, it probably is the wrong answer.

I think it makes total sense that God would not accept a sacrifice from something that he had cursed. Also, this was mans first attemp of works being used to get Gods acceptance. The sacrifice was from the work of Cains hands. He thought God would accept it because he worked for it. Able did not work, but found perfection in what God made, and offered that to Him.
I hope this makes sense to you. If it does not, help me see somewhere in scripture where God accepted any sacraifice from the ground.

GEL

 

[ZiSunka]

I think it makes total sense that God would not accept a sacrifice from something that he had cursed. Also, this was mans first attemp of works being used to get Gods acceptance. The sacrifice was from the work of Cains hands. He thought God would accept it because he worked for it. Able did not work, but found perfection in what God made, and offered that to Him.
I hope this makes sense to you. If it does not, help me see somewhere in scripture where God accepted any sacraifice from the ground.

GEL

Yes, the herbs would have been nourished by the ground that you say was cursed, but the sheep would have been nourished by the cursed herbs from the cursed ground, so they wouldn't have been an acceptable offering either. Also, Abel tended his sheep. They didn't raise themselves nor were they wild sheep, so they were obtained by the work, too. So if God refused to accept Cain's offering because he worked for it, he would have had to reject Abel's for the same reason.

Have you ever heard of the grain offering? It was one of the most holy offerings. If offerings from crops were unacceptable, how could grain offerings be among the most holy?

'When anyone offers a grain offering to the Lord, his offering shall be of fine flour. And he shall pour oil on it, and put frankincense on it. Le 2:1

'And if you bring as an offering a grain offering baked in the oven, it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil. Le 2:4

And what is left of the grain offering shall be Aaron's and his sons'. It is most holy of the offerings to the Lord made by fire. Le 2:10

 

[ZiSunka]

Of course, those grain offerings had to be of the firstfruits, the very best, not the leftover grain or all chaff or anything:

'If you offer a grain offering of your firstfruits to the Lord, you shall offer for the grain offering of your firstfruits green heads of grain roasted on the fire, grain beaten from full heads. Le 2:14

Oh and olive oil was offered, too:

"And on the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and one log of oil. Le 14:10

Of course, olives are a fruit, too, yet they are not too cursed to be an offering to God.

So, if it is acceptable and even required to make offerings from your firstfruits, and Cain's offering of the fruit of the ground was rejected by God, then it has to be that Cain's offering was rejected because there was something wrong with it, and what was wrong with it was that it was Cain's leftovers, not his firstfruits, his very best.

 

[2Timothy2]

Um, Lockheed, I think your arguement could be turned back on you there. I don't see from the text of Gen 3 anything to suggest that animal scarifice had been established as the norm. The details are sparse and Heb 11:4 doesn't add anything to our knowledge on this specific point. But I could be overlooking something somewhere else in Scripture.

GEL's idea is interesting. I'd never heard that before, the fruit of the ground and the ground being cursed and all. Intriguing, GEL, you've made me want to dig deeper into Scripture. That's always appreciated. But, as for whether God ever accepts that type of offering, Pr 3:9-10 seems to suggest He does. And there were numerous offerings that included unleavened bread, which came ultimately from the ground. Albeit, none of these are sin offerings. I just don't see this one (Gen 4) as being designated a sin offering in Scripture.

Personally, I'm not clear as to whether Cain's offering was the wrong kind (as in not an animal or "of the ground"), or the wrong quality (not his best). Whatever the case, his heart was not right. God does not arbitrarily reject His faithful. We see this throughout Scripture, and throughout history. So, I'd say yes, Cain knew. What exactly he knew, I'm not sure, and I can't be dogmatic for any position.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

It all belongs to God, the lambs, the herbs, everything. When we give God our best, he accepts it. When we give him our leftovers, he rejects them. We, like Cain, can get mad about it, but God is right, he deserves our best.

While we agree a little, I still think that you are missing the point a little Lamb.
Cain had a chance to make things right with God.
Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God gave Cain a chance to redeem himself in Verse 6 by asking him convicting questions. Here is the perfect picture of Gods grace on mankind. Cains offering was from the cursed ground. It was also an attempt to make "man made works" acceptable as a gift to God. Cain was the first born, and God told him, if you do well, "thee (cain) shall be his (ables) desire, and thou(Cain) shalt rule over him(Able.) This is where cain KNEW that he could make things right. Here is where God is teaching cain that his offering was not acceptable but if he did right he would rule over his brother and cain still had a heart problem! He was so mad because his work was not good enough he killed his brother.

I hope this makes sense to the OP.

GEL

 

[ZiSunka]

I didn't know that was your point, GEL, you never mentioned it before.

I thought your point was that Cain's offering was rejected because God cursed the ground for Adam.

But if your point is that Cain knew it was wrong and had the chance to make things right but refused, then yes, that is true. Cain is totally responsible for his own problems. Nobody forced him to give a bad offering, nobody prevented him from repenting and making a better offering, and nobody forced him to kill his brother. Considering all this, God went very easy on him when he punished him by merely placing a curse on the ground he tilled so that he would never harvest a crop again and so he would have to be a vagabond (meaning a beggar). I guess that teaches us that if we don't give our best to God and we refuse to repent, we are in danger of losing the bounty God gives us.