Did America Bring the Attacks On Itself??

[Blindfaith]

Thank you Michael for bringing us back to ground zero.

 

 

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Posted by wildernesse: "When I look at our foreign policy and some of our questionable tactics and the questionable support we have given some leaders, I do think that we are contributing to the hatred of America."

Like what?

FOW

Recently, the lack of support for the rule of law in Venezuela--when President Chavez was removed from power by the military and a more sympathetic to the middle and upper classes was installed for a weekend.  Most other countries were outraged at this abuse of military power and disregard for the law.

As the beacon of freedom and democracy, shouldn't the U.S. support the rule of law in other countries?  Apparently the answer is:  only when it suits us.   

--tibac

 

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by cenimo
wildernesse


So if country A (US) - doesn't like some of the policies of country B over the years - (pick one!), then country A is justified in picking out the two largest buildings in the other contry's financial distrcit, stealing its own airliners, and flying them onto those buildings, and vaporizing civilians, because, after all, country B was the provoker...

had the US initiatied such an attack anywhere in the world there would still be an uproar instead of anyoine saying that the country attacked brought the attack on itself...

That's a mis-representation of my position.  I said that there should be punishment for wrongs and that nothing excuses Darcy hitting Marcy in my example (hitting others is wrong).

But! If we become aware that there are circumstances that made an attack more likely, then maybe we should work on identifying those circumstances and improving our behavior.

--tibac

 

[Blindfaith]

 

As the beacon of freedom and democracy, shouldn't the U.S. support the rule of law in other countries? Apparently the answer is: only when it suits us

Gosh, maybe it's a matter of priority and national security? Who's the bigger threat? Iraq, North Korea or Venezuela? Can we take it one at a time?

 

[wildernesse]

Michael,

I am sorry for your loss and for your friend's family. I'm not blaming the government for the attacks--nothing excuses that. We're not perfect though, and should work on problems. Like promoting democratic and free governments around the world.

--tibac

 

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by blindfaith
 

Gosh, maybe it's a matter of priority and national security? Who's the bigger threat? Iraq, North Korea or Venezuela? Can we take it one at a time?

Not only did we support the coup, we helped plan it.  Why would we do that?  It certainly should take nothing to stop ourselves from helping plan the overthrow of a democratically elected head of state. 

From my previous link:

The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the 'dirty wars' of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time.

Now officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it, presuming it to be destined for success. The visits by Venezuelans plotting a coup, including Carmona himself, began, say sources, 'several months ago', and continued until weeks before the putsch last weekend. The visitors were received at the White House by the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich.

--tibac

 

[fieldsofwind]

where was that quote from again wildernesse?

 

[Doctrine1st]

Originally posted by blindfaith
 

Gosh, maybe it's a matter of priority and national security? Who's the bigger threat? Iraq, North Korea or Venezuela? Can we take it one at a time?

Bin Laden and Al-qaida!

As a direct threat to us, the others you mention aren't even in the same league.

Still not one peap about them from our leaders, it's been Iraq, Iraq, Iraq.

 

[wildernesse]

My link was to The Observer--a British news source.

--tibac

 

[cenimo]

wildernesse

That's a mis-representation of my position. I said that there should be punishment for wrongs and that nothing excuses Darcy hitting Marcy in my example (hitting others is wrong).

But! If we become aware that there are circumstances that made an attack more likely, then maybe we should work on identifying those circumstances and improving our behavior.

--tibac

Just MHO but even if we really reach and try to blame the attacked country as bringing it on themselves, you can't do so without considering the type, the nature of the attack. To try and come up with a self-examination of "did we have it coming" while not even mentioning - reminding everyone - that one of the targets hit - which had the most casulaties- housed civilians does three things:

1. feeds the attackers PSYOPS - psychological operations - they couldn't do that well with it if they tried

and thus

2. Does a dandy job of causing division in the country that was attacked

3. Demorlizes our military who may have to go to war.

Throughout history wars are between haves and have nots. In this case, those all too willing to become martyrs - part of the have nots- are being duped by their own luxurious living leaders to play that role. (granted, Bin Laden an exception to this - it's not like we'd ever see Bill Gates, Forbes, et al living in a cave for a caise, but that's another diatribe).

But! If we become aware that there are circumstances that made an attack more likely, then maybe we should work on identifying those circumstances and improving our behavior.

The duty of a soldier, and the military is to accomplish the mission. We were attacked on our soil. First you identify and locate the attackers, then you annihilate them. Then, and only then is there any time for introspection.

 

[Blindfaith]

Doctrine, there is something called "classified information".  The President is privy to information we, as citizens cannot know right now.  I trust my President to do what is right to secure the safety of our country, to the best of his HUMAN ability.

Now.  As far as priorities (from a simple citizen, not a White House aid).  To me, Venezuela is not at the top of the priority list right now.  Our troops, and allied coalition are in Afghanistan working daily at rooting out the terrorists, and along with that, helping to rebuild a nation.  Not 'the' nation, but 'a' nation.  The government has made the US as safe as it possibly can be (as far as I know).

Iraq ~ I feel as if the "burden of proof" has been shifted off of Iraq, to the US.  Why is this?  Ever since 1991, the UN has imposed how many resolutions to Iraq for them to prove that they got rid of their weapons of mass destruction?  Have they?  No, no, no and no some more, over and over and over again.  Now, the burden of proof has been shifted to President Bush......(using my best whiney voice); "where's the proof?  Where is your evidence of the weapons"...

North Korea.  I have a suggestion.  As soon as the US wanted to go after Saddam without the UN's "blessing" , there was an uproar, and the US had to go through the UN.  Okay, we did.

Anyone who is whining and complaining that the US isn't doing anything about North Korea, and that they are a bigger threat than Iraq, I suggest you write a letter to the head of the UN and request they make up a resolution for North Korea.  If President Bush couldn't do anything about Iraq without the UN's blessing, why put the heat on him about North Korea now?

 

 

[Kiwi]

Of course the people in the twin towers and the pentegon did not bring the attacks of 11th of September upon themselves. And while the American government has had, and still has some bad foreign policy, no country deserves to be attacked in that way. Just the same as the common people of Iraq do not deserve to have their homes destroyed or have no medicine because of the policies of their leader. People in East Timor did not deserve to be massacred by the Indonesian military, People in Israel do not deserve to be blown up by suicide bombers, People in Palestine do not deserve to live in fear of Israeli weaponary. The point is that, as the saying goes, when you point a finger, there are 10 pointing back at you. Just as the terrorists could not distinguish between innocent Americans citizens and American government policy, sometimes we cannot distinguish between Saddam and innocent Iraqi citizens (North Koreans, or whatever country is the 'baddie'). I don't know what the answer is to all the world's problems, wars, politics. While mourning the loss of innocent victims worldwide, we can also try to reach out to know people from a group that is considered the 'enemy', be they Iraqi's or American's. Not a perfect solution by any means, but maybe a start to breaking down sterotypes and prejudice.

 

[archangeldream]

The "American Empire" is the new Roman Empire. They will eventually fall just as Rome did. The Twin Tower Attacks may or may not be the beginning of the end; but there will be an end. All empires come to an end.

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by blindfaith
Let's see. Let's say that someone attacked one of my daughters. Am I going to be "kindness in action" and do nothing? Or am I going to see that justice is served and the perp behind bars (hopefully), and then the healing and forgiveness can happen? If a woman is raped, should she simply say, "oh, well, I'm a Christian, therefore I need to automatically forgive and let bygones be bygones?" I think that's an incredibly ridiculous thought, don't you?

Perhaps I do, but the leader of the very religion you claim to embrace certainly thought that's what you should do.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

[cenimo]

archangedream

That's odd....most people who have really studied prophecy will tell you that the EU is the new Roman Empire... 7 hills, 10 horns, all that good stuff...harlot Bablyon is hardly in North America, either...

 

[wildernesse]

I'm not saying fixing Venezuela is a priority--no one asked what I thought our priorities were. I was asked what a questionable foreign policy was.

Supporting the people who overthrew the duly elected head of state by a military coup is what we did. Last year, 2002. I'm saying that was wrong--that we should have said that the problems in Venezuela should have been solved according to their laws and by legal means.

No, Venezuela is not a priority for national security. No, we don't need to *do* anything. All we should have done was call for respect of the rule of law--we should still be doing that, actually--and across the board. It's the principled thing to do. And no amount of terrorism or war should make us untrue to the principles that this country is founded upon--individual freedoms, democracy, and respect for the rule of law.

--tibac

 

[gwyyn]

hmmm i remeber it being discussed in another thread about whether America should just isolate itself and only worry about it's people. It's starting to sound like a good idea since our being the 'police' of the world is just tearing our country apart.

As for Venezula, their's always military coups overthrowing one president or another in these countries.

North Korea, yea definatly need something done there. Watched program over their big political prisoner prison. Some horrifing stories there.

And finally Iraq, hmmm wonder if anyone remebers on news about Sadam giving money to the family members of the suicide bombers of Hamas. Just wondering is this not supporting terrorism????
Also on news last they were showing the various places in which inspectors have visted. One of these places was a static missle test site. At this site missles who had the range of 1000 miles were being tested. The giving report said this was in violation of UN sanctions, because Sadam had a missle that could reach Quator or Israel. Saw on Fox news, On Record w/ Greta Van Susteran.

gwyyn

 

[Nelzador]

Originally posted by cenimo
archangedream

That's odd....most people who have really studied prophecy will tell you that the EU is the new Roman Empire... 7 hills, 10 gorns, all that good stuff...harlot Bablyon is hardly in North America, either...

The EU has actually moved more in line with Hitler's vision of a unified Europe under a single government, except this was done via diplomatic routes and it scares the heck out of me.

 

[cenimo]

archangeldream, Nelzador. wildrnesse, all, please see new thread, Dec 2003 - The Contitution of Rome, in this forum (News)

 

(sorry - bf tried to educate me  on this once, but I don't know how to link to the OP without getting the entire thread- as it grows)

 

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by gwyyn

As for Venezula, their's always military coups overthrowing one president or another in these countries.

There's always going to be bad stuff in the world, why speak out about it. I hear you loud and clear. Who cares?

No use in trying to be a shining light because there is overwhelming darkness everywhere you turn--what will a candle do. How can you stand being jaded? What life is in that--it's hopeless and apt to be cruel and indifferent to people's suffering.

Idealism is for the young, I know--and I am. I think we should do what is RIGHT, not what is in our best interest. As a person and as a nation. Supporting change within the rule of law is what is right.

--tibac