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Did America Bring the Attacks On Itself??

gwyyn

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Ok this thread is started because of something said in another thread. 

So What we are saying here is that those terrorists did that for no reason at all??? Im not for terrorism, i think its a cowardly revolting act. I believe in peace and for justice by peaceful means. I think the events of Septemeber 11 were amazingly sad, they made me really sad, but not angry...But you need to look at why these people did this????? Why is America the worlds most hated country? WHy is the American flag the most burnt flag in the world??? Those in the middle east have been living under oppression by the US AND the west for many years now. They are poor and they are dying due to sanctions placed on their people for 12 years now. The rate of cancer there is 10 times higher than any other country in the world because of the american bombs dropped in the desert in the gulf war,the chemicals are still flying round in the dust, the hospitals have 1 bottle of asprin to pass round because they cant get any medicine. Why the world Trade Centre??? Because it is the place where Globalisation is centred. These were a desrperate and oppressed people fighting back. Im not saying it was right. I am saying that you need to look at the reasons why people do these things before you go and bomb an entire country over what reasons??? Weapons of mass destruction?? WHat Where??? have we got ANY proof yet???
   posted by laume in the ethics of eating animals thread.  sorry didn't get who i quoted in there  :( 


So does anyone agree with this??

I don't!  America was first hit by  the Taliban, whom if I'm correct helped fight the Russians in Afghanistan.

 

gwyyn
 

Brimshack

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Well let's see…

"So What we are saying here is that those terrorists did that for no reason at all??? Im not for terrorism, i think its a cowardly revolting act. I believe in peace and for justice by peaceful means. I think the events of Septemeber 11 were amazingly sad, they made me really sad, but not angry"

So far nothing Laum is just manuevering for credibility. No debate yet.

"...But you need to look at why these people did this?????"

It's a good idea to think about that sort of thing, but I would begin here to disntinguish explaininjg behavior from defending it. Sometimes it pays to try and understand why someone did something without necessarily endorsing it. OK, I can go along with that.

"Why is America the worlds most hated country? WHy is the American flag the most burnt flag in the world???"

Some of what Laum will suggest below is plausible, but I would argue that a certain amount of it goes with being the dominant power in the world. We are bound to take some flak whether we do things right or wrong. That said, there are certainly good reasons to question American policies, particularly with respect to the Middle East.

"Those in the middle east have been living under oppression by the US AND the west for many years now."

I'd say that they have faced the usual extraction economy, and that the bulk of their population suffers from a collaboration of both U.S. (and other Western) officials (and private businesmen) AND many of their own leaders. Not also, though, that to the extent that the U.S. does exploit Middle Eastern peoples, this does not necessarily mean that is the reason they hate us. I sincerely doubt that many of those bashing the U.S. have a clear view of the mechanisms by which core nations gainthe upper hand on those in the economic periphery. And I am even more doubtful that any terrorist actions are constructively aimed at reversing the actual patterns of exploitation. Note also, that I would say "exploit" here rather than "Oppress", but part of that is due to Laum's choice of "Middle East" as the subject of the sentence. She appears to be confounding general issues of U.S./Middle Eastern nations with the specific context of U.S./Iraqie conflcists.

"They are poor and they are dying due to sanctions placed on their people for 12 years now. The rate of cancer there is 10 times higher than any other country in the world because of the american bombs dropped in the desert in the gulf war,the chemicals are still flying round in the dust, the hospitals have 1 bottle of asprin to pass round because they cant get any medicine."

I don't know about the details, but this sounds probable. Of course, some of the lack of resources is due to the fact that deliberate allowences for humanitarian aid have been diverted by Saddam Hussein. But nevertheless, part of the purpose of total warfare is to put pressure on civilian populations, and that does involve increasing infant mortality rates by destroying infrastructure. So, I'd say that Iraqi people are suffering by cnscious choice of both U.S. and Iraqie officials.

"Why the world Trade Centre??? Because it is the place where Globalisation is centred."

Yes, I believe that was the logic of the target-choice.

"These were a desrperate and oppressed people fighting back."

No, O.B. Laden, and a good portion of the terrorists were NOT desparate and oppressed. They do not come from the poorer ranks of Middle-eastern society, but rather from the very puppet-class that works hand in hand with the U.S. at the expense of other Arabs. Their opposition to the U.S. is far more likely to be rooted in status politics than the ned to redress poverty or political oppression at home. It is also doubtful that they intend to do any more to help the bulk of the Arab peope if they do get some power of their own.

"Im not saying it was right. I am saying that you need to look at the reasons why people do these things before you go and bomb an entire country over what reasons???"

See above.

"Weapons of mass destruction?? WHat Where??? have we got ANY proof yet???"

Fair enough, though I'm inclined to believe he either has them or wants them. The fact is that the U.S. supported his efforts to get them at one point, and many of the very officials who allowed him to gas "his own people" (i.e. Kurdish rebells) are now the ones condemning him for this. That's enough to raise some seriouos questions about the reasons for the war, though I must admit that I am not fully prepared to oppose the war on these grounds. I do share many of Laum's concerns about the situation, though I can't say that I am as convinced as she appears to be that we are at fault.
 
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Malachi383

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I am going to say a few things.  Dont get me wrong, I am an American, and I love that I was born here, and have the freedoms that I do have.  And I think all should have them.  But there is a definite line, one which America has crossed.

You say the Taliban struck first with the WTCs. Do you really think this?  Have you not been paying attention to any of the past 50+ years or anything that happened in them?

First, we trained the Taliban and Iraqis.  We gave them weapons and taught them how to fight.  We taught them this because we knew they would want to fight the invaders into their countries - mainly Russia and Iran.  We created them to be the way they are today.  We created the monster, and then lost control.  We should have known they would have turned on us.  It was only a matter of time.  The same reasons that we used to turn them against others, were the same reasons they should have turned against us for.

Secondly, these are not new conflicts.  Remember the USS Cole? Remember how in return bombed several different plants, etc. that were supposed bases, centers, or chemical/biological weapons plants?  It goes back much futher than this.

We live in an age today where one question comes to mind - is the US an empire? Economically, we hold dominion over all countries.  We have power to raise up Third World countries, or keep them where they are.  Technologically, people come here.  We have the power.  Everywhere you go, as long as you know English, you are generally ok.  Militarily, we have bases in countries all over the world.  We are the world's policemen.  Yet who police's the policemen?

Our foriegn policy is in many ways completly selfish.  Often times we dont care who we step on as long as we come out on top.  We are quite ruthless.  We get into everybody's business, because "it is our own."  All this in an age when empires and colonialism were supposedly dead.

In the melting pot of the world, that shouts "Rights! Freedoms! Liberties!" from the rooftops, we have an intolerable government towards others.  We have no respect for others.  Now I am not saying that the beliefs of Islam are correct (in fact I think they arent), but we continually offend them in the name of commercialism, free trade, business.

Who is it that has kept Israel alive in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Did not the original charter call for a Palistinian state as well as a Jewish one? What happened to that part? Who is it that gives Israel weapons, planes, helicopters, and missles? Those helicopters they use in assisinations and in shooting of refugee camps and such were American made.  Those planes they used to attack Egypt in past wars, or Syria, or Jordan, those were American made (both defensives and OFFENSIVES!).  The missiles that fell were American.  We hold a certain amount of responsibility for what they do with them, for we gave it to them, well knowing how they would be used.

 

I DONT agree with anything that they have done, but I certainly understand why they are upset.  It is not like we have done nothing to wrong them, or their beliefs, or anything.

I mean, look at our government.  In this age of freedom of the press, and freedom of information, the president put a block on what comes out of the White House, that at one time was standard.  Why? Does he have something to hide?  Then you look at the handling of prosecutions and such, in which we have DENIED people their American rights in the name of America? Does that sound contradictory, that in order to have our freedom, we should have to suppress other people's? They are also looking for more freedom in tapping phones and tracing calls and doing just about everything they can to invade our privacy.  Should we give up our Bill of Rights in order to keep it? Isnt that a bit contradictory?

We love our freedoms.  And yet we give China, which continually has been shown to oppress freedom and infringe upon basic human rights, permanant trade status? Please explain this to me.  We are upset with Iraq over the Kurds, but no one mentions that the day after they got their trade status, they buldozed several villages thought to contain underground churches, or shall we begin to mention numerable massacres.  What is the difference? Iraq doesnt have much we need other than oil, which we have other sources for.  China, on the other hand, we need economically.  Our biases clearly show through.

And now North Korea has nuclear weapons.  We dont like this, and say they cant have any.  I am sorry, I dont think that anyone should have nuclear weapons, but we say they cant have them but we have a huge arsenal of them?  Do we expect people to just follow what we say?  How long are they just going to listen as we continually buy them off with economic trade (we have done this with N.K. on several occasions previously).

And why is that when there are UN forces, they are predominantly US?  And it is usually the US that is pushing for the forces to be put in?

There is a difference between attempting to keep our world safe, and infringing upon others, pushing them around, and establishing an empire of sorts.

 

Those are my thoughts on the subject.  I will leave it at that.  I wont return to debate.  I wont confront.  Take pop shots if you will, I wont be here to take them.  I just thought I would give you a little food for thought.  I disagree with violence, especially the WTC sort.  I think it was aweful and terrible.  But at the same time, our hands, too, are stained with blood; our hearts, too, burn with vengeance; and in many ways, we have become like "the enemy."

A quick story - the September 12th, 2001 - a friend of mine was on his way to school.  He passes a nieghborhood that is predominantly Muslim.  The one thing that was different that day was that no one was waiting at the bus stop on the main street.  Instead, the bus pulled up, and kids began to sprint from their homes.  These were elementary schoolers, whose parents were to afraid of the ignorant people who turned on all muslims.  This fear was instilled in these kids.  And so they ran to the bus, out of fear.  These were kids!

God bless
 
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kern

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I don't think it's correct to say that America brought the attacks on itself.

However, it is also not correct to imagine that these attacks just came out of nowhere, with nothing to explain them other than some random hatred of the US.

US policies definitely had something to do with the attacks, but to me that's not the same thing as saying that we brought it on ourselves.

-Chris
 
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wildernesse

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The attacks didn't come out of nowhere, and it is right to look for answers to the reason for the attack. Self-examination is not bad, even for a nation. If we find that we're creating problems by supporting power-hungry dictators to get our way around the world, and then having problems with them once we leave them to their own devices, then maybe we should examine our policy of supporting power-hungry dictators. Hmmm. Just an example--I'm not saying it's at all relevant.

--tibac
 
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Lacmeh

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Well, I think in a certain way, the US brought it on themselves. The US engages, mostly out of self interest itself in various parts of the world. One of the parts is the so called Middle East. In this part, the US supports uncritically an opressive regime(s) (Israel, Iraq in the past, Persia in the past, Saudi Arabia now). It is a well known fact, that people fight the Israeli regime (I don´t want to discuss their methods here). It is further a well known fact, that the US is hated, by those same people (Rightfully or not, this is not the point of the discussion). Several attacks have been made in the past on some US property. The various crackpot leaders have spouted hatred against the US for decades.
With these ingridients it is only a question of time, till some whacko gets the idea to do the same things in the US, as they do in Israel.
I don´t think, the phrase "had it coming" is approbiate, more like, it was only logical to assume, that such attacks were and are highly probable.
As long as the US support Israel uncritical it will be in danger of such attacks. As the saying goes, for a fight it takes two. Various crackpot groups on the Arab side aren´t interested in peace, because peace would be dangerous to their following (aka it would melt like snow in summer), Israel´s government isn´t interested in peace, because that would mean giving up terretory on which religious right fanatics sit (Those same fanatic parties, that are constantly brought into the government), limiting water for the Israeli population, and various other things.
Furthermore, the US is known as a nation, that doesn´t adhere to signed and ratified treaties. That adds to the worldwide dislike. Because of that, nobody would do attacks. But when the US wants something from the international community, it gets harder, because nobody realyl trusts the US to adhere to pacts. Therefore the US do some bullying, which gets others scoff even more...
 
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Blindfaith

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If a country wants to demolish or disable another country, they typically declare war. 

The attack at Pearl Harbor was targeted towards the military personnel, ships, planes and airfields.

The WTC attack targeted civilians in 2 buildings.  If the Taliban wanted to declare war on America, then they could have been REAL MEN, instead of slimy cowards and leave the innocent people alone.

I'm sick and tired of hearing about how "the Americans brought it on themselves".  That's about the same type of "I'm not responsible for my actions" mentality I get from my 5 year old at times.

Gimme a break.  They attacked, and now they're going to pay.
 
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HazyRigby

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I'd simply like to point out that this

Gimme a break. They attacked, and now they're going to pay.

And this

Kindness is love in action!

...are on the same person's post. Just a thought.
 
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wildernesse

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Say you have two children, Marcy and Darcy. One day, Marcy runs up to you crying that Darcy smacked her in the face. You go and get Darcy and tell her that it is wrong to hit others and give her time out, etc.

Later, while reviewing the film from your hidden camera (!!), you see that Marcy was poking Darcy with a twig--on purpose, and continously and enough to be aggravating. Would you then have a talk with Marcy to correct her behavior? I would hope so.

It doesn't excuse Darcy's behavior, but Marcy did contribute and if you stopped Marcy's contribution it would be close to certain that Darcy wouldn't have had a reason to smack her in the first place.

When I look at our foreign policy and some of our questionable tactics and the questionable support we have given some leaders, I do think that we are contributing to the hatred of America. It doesn't mean I excuse people for the suffering they cause, but it might mean that I try to examine our behavior and see if there are negative effects of our actions.

--tibac
 
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eldermike

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The whole strory: Marcy was poking Darcy because Marcy gassed her cat.

If you go back far enough you will find enough blame to go around, I don't disagree with that. However, we have a moral obligation to defend the good ol USA first, and then let's talk about how we got here. You can't do both, fix policy, while dropping bombs. Both are equally necessary but given the current conditions, one is certain to be first and the second will not be possible until the smoke clears.
 
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wildernesse

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But that's not on camera! :D

I agree, first things first--punishing the ones who did this and protecting ourselves. But I think that we can begin building new policy initiatives and goals and researching our mistakes in the past as well--when do we start implementing our new policies though? When will the smoke clear on this war on terror--I don't see the end anywhere in sight because our goals ("eradicate terror") are so vague. There are plenty of people to help on different tasks.

--tibac

--tibac
 
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Blindfaith

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LOL @ Brimshack!!   I can't believe that I'm actually laughing hysterically at one of your posts Brim.  That was CLASSIC!!  I'm gonna have to give you some blessings for that one.

Bunny ~ you sure do look familiar.  Mmm-hmm.  Let's see.  Let's say that someone attacked one of my daughters.  Am I going to be "kindness in action" and do nothing?  Or am I going to see that justice is served and the perp behind bars (hopefully), and then the healing and forgiveness can happen?  If a woman is raped, should she simply say, "oh, well, I'm a Christian, therefore I need to automatically forgive and let bygones be bygones?"  I think that's an incredibly ridiculous thought, don't you?

3,000 people were murdered by a bunch of slimy cowardly terrorists, who have no desire to stop whatsoever.  Should we do nothing?  Or should we see that justice is done, and let the healing process take place?

 
 
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gwyyn

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Ok if someone attacked one of my kids, I wanna say I'll be just and find out if my son was provoking and causing the attack. However I can't gurantee that, but can gurantee who ever attacked them better watch out cause one mad mamma would be on the look out.

I think honestly how people are gonna view this is by how they view America in first place. If it's a strong patriot they are gonna be like let's hunt the terrorist down!! If it's someone who tends to dislike America's policys they are gonna sit back and say told ya so! Don't know where I lay but somewhere in middle.
 
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eldermike

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I think I got my Marcy's and Darcy's crossed.

I heard someone say today that Bush would have prevented WW2. I can't argue with that. I heard another say that if this was about oil, we would be protecting and making deals with Oil Producing Nations, not attacking them. I can't argue with that.

While I pray for peace, I am doing so at 72 degrees, I am equally aware of that fact.

I don't think our policies are to blame for the attack. I can't get past the reality that Nations run by nuts are sometimes larger factors.
 
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cenimo

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wildernesse


So if country A (US) - doesn't like some of the policies of country B over the years - (pick one!), then country A is justified in picking out the two largest buildings in the other contry's financial distrcit, stealing its own airliners, and flying them onto those buildings, and vaporizing civilians, because, after all, country B was the provoker...

had the US initiatied such an attack anywhere in the world there would still be an uproar instead of anyoine saying that the country attacked brought the attack on itself...
 
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Michael0701

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The question alone sickens me. My friend, officer John Skala did nothing in his very short life to deserve to die like that. How can we forget those who died on 9 11 and blame our own government for the insanity that did this.
 
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