Did Adam sin?

[fatboys]

I agree with everything except for one... Which I recently had to change in one if my posts...
Had they choose to stay in the Garden, that would have been the right way also.
Adam and Eve choose the 'better' way... Albeit the harder and more dangerous way.

Here is a thought. If Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit and remained it the garden would they have had children not having the knowledge of good and evil? if they would not have children they wouldAlso be in disobedience. Now that is covering your bases

 

[smaneck]

I think Jews would say that it's simply a way for us to envision things, not that there was a physical body. Like when it says He stretched forth His hand, we're not supposed to think of a guy on a throne reaching forward.

What I'm suggesting is that the Hebrew conception of God evolved over time. Initially He doesn't seem that different from the gods of Mesopotamia. He walks in the Garden, savors burnt offerings, comes to visit Abraham with a couple of angels. The sons of God mate with the daughters of men, He holds council with the gods or the sons of God, etc. But by the time we get to Jeremiah and Isaiah, God is no longer interested in burnt offerings, He is clearly the only God there is and one day the whole world will worship Him and live in peace.

 

[Alawishis]

Can a toddler sin?

Yes of course. We don't learn to become sinners, although we do learn to become more accomplished at it. We are born into it sin. Have you never seen a toddler lie, steal, etc. And yes they do choose to do so. The real question is does God hold a toddler accountable for their sins.

 

[Alawishis]

If you put a gun in front of a 2 year old and told the child not to touch it.... If when you then leave the room the baby picks up the gun, plays with it, and shots himself dead; whose fault is it? Yours or the baby's?

Though Adam did not sin, he could not escape the consequences of his actions.

I see it as more like a choice between two actions, each having their own results and consequences. To Adam and Eve, there was no bad or wrong choice, as they did not even understand the difference between right and wrong. I see it as God "priming the pump" when it came to their free agency; forcing them to make one of two choices "on their own" otherwise it would not of been true free agency. Had they truely of understood who God the Father was, or who Satan was, they may never have made any choices at all and simply blindly followed God without ever exercising their free agency.

Luckily they made the "BETTER" choice.

In your analogy God is responsible. This makes God the sinner. Some here are making the Devil out to be doing the good work by setting man on this new path "enlightenment".

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
~ Isaiah 5:20 ESV.

 

[fatboys]

Yes of course. We don't learn to become sinners, although we do learn to become more accomplished at it. We are born into it sin. Have you never seen a toddler lie, steal, etc. And yes they do choose to do so. The real question is does God hold a toddler accountable for their sins.

I do not believe that we are born into sin. I Believe that we are going to sin. What we are born into is imperfection which brings about physical death and spiritual death this is what Adam left the world with. Because of imperfection and spiritual death we are subject to sin which draws us further from God.

 

[Alawishis]

I do not believe that we are born into sin. I Believe that we are going to sin. What we are born into is imperfection which brings about physical death and spiritual death this is what Adam left the world with. Because of imperfection and spiritual death we are subject to sin which draws us further from God.

Of course your free to believe what ever you want. I'm just going by what the bible says, it seems to be pretty clear to me.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Job 15:14-16 - What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
1 John 1:10 - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

...that's just for a start.

I don't see any mentions about there being exceptions if you are a child in fact the opposite said. I don't know how many here believe in the bible or even follow it. You can follow your own beliefs all you like. I'm not against the idea's you express if you could show them to me in the bible I'll be on your side.

 

[Niblo]

Agree with the toddler premise. As for the requirement for a deliberate action to qualify as sin, that's not entirely accurate according to the Bible. There is a category of sin called unintentional sins like breaking a commandment due to carelessness, forgetfulness or ignorance.

According to Islam, Adam was merely forgetful. That is why he was forgiven; with no penalty imposed either on him, or on his descendants. It was always intended that he be the Exalted’s vicegerent on Earth......with or without the fruit!

 

[single eye]

I'm sorry, people tell me that the whole Jesus thing was for atonement. Seems to be relevant to Christianity.

It is relevant to the religion of christianity, not to the "faith once delivered to the saints"?

 

[smaneck]

According to Islam, Adam was merely forgetful.

But Paul, you know full well that forgetfulness is the central human problem, the root of all evil which can only be overcome by bringing our relationship to God constantly to mind in acts of remembrance (dhikr.)

Remember how the Qur'an describes the primordial Covenant of Alastu?

“And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware; Or you should say: Only our fathers associated others (with Allah) before, and we were an offspring after them: Wilt Thou then destroy us for what the vain doers did?”

[Here is your pre-existance, Mormons]

The problem, of course, is that we don’t remember that Covenant. A major goal of Sufism has been to “remember” the ecstasy of God’s primordial presence and of our response to Him, one that only a true adept is deemed able to attain. Sufis declare they are mast‑e Alast, drunken because God asked men's souls before Creation, "Am I not (alastu) your Lord?" and they affirmed it. This covenant before time itself between lover and Beloved is a source of such joy that its recollection instantly intoxicates anyone who understands it.

 

[Niblo]

But Paul, you know full well that forgetfulness is the central human problem, the root of all evil which can only be overcome by bringing our relationship to God constantly to mind in acts of remembrance (dhikr.)

Remember how the Qur'an describes the primordial Covenant of Alastu?

“And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware; Or you should say: Only our fathers associated others (with Allah) before, and we were an offspring after them: Wilt Thou then destroy us for what the vain doers did?”

[Here is your pre-existance, Mormons]

The problem, of course, is that we don’t remember that Covenant. A major goal of Sufism has been to “remember” the ecstasy of God’s primordial presence and of our response to Him, one that only a true adept is deemed able to attain. Sufis declare they are mast‑e Alast, drunken because God asked men's souls before Creation, "Am I not (alastu) your Lord?" and they affirmed it. This covenant before time itself between lover and Beloved is a source of such joy that its recollection instantly intoxicates anyone who understands it.

Hello Susan,

You are correct, of course. I used the word 'merely' to emphasis the fact that Adam's actions were those of a forgetful rather than a rebellious person. I agree with you that forgetfulness is the root of all sin, and can be overcome only by remembrance of Him. I'm sorry for causing confusion.

 

[Robban]

Remembering to forget.

"When you reap your harvest in your field and you forget a sheaf in the field,
you shall not go back to take it,
it shall be (left) for the stranger,
the orthan, and the widow,
so that the Lord your God,
will bless you in all that you do."

(Deut 24:19)

 

[Niblo]

Remebering to forget.

"When you reap your harvest in your field and you forget a sheaf in the field,
you shall not go back to take it,
it shall be (left) for the stranger,
the orthan, and the widow,
so that the Lord your God,
will bless you in all that you do."

(Deut 24:19)

Proof that the mercy of HaShem is greater by far than our own.

 

[Robban]

Proof that the mercy of HaShem is greater by far than our own.

Yep.

Unfathomable.

 

[Niblo]

Yep.

Unfathomable.

Takes the breath away just thinking about it.

‘I look up at your heavens, shaped by your fingers, at the moon and the stars you set firm - what are human beings that you spare a thought for them, or the child of Adam that you care for him? Yet you have made him little less than a god, you have crowned him with glory and beauty, made him lord of the works of your hands, put all things under his feet, sheep and cattle, all of them, and even the wild beasts, birds in the sky, fish in the sea, when he makes his way across the ocean. Yahweh our Lord, how majestic your Name throughout the world!’

(Psalm 8: 3-9).

Amen!

 

[Theway]

In your analogy God is responsible. This makes God the sinner. Some here are making the Devil out to be doing the good work by setting man on this new path "enlightenment".

Then congratulations, you got my point... Although the analogy does not mirror my belief, it is meant to show the ridiculous and contradictory nature of those who believe Adam sinned by eating the fruit, and that the Fall was an evil act.
For if the Fall was the single greatest act of evil by one man, then that makes God culpable.
First God leaves Adam and Eve without the ability to know what they were doing was wrong.
God then made the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil a most desirable tree.
God then places the Tree right in the middle of the Garden.
God leaves the Tree unguarded when clearly God had the foreknowledge to know when to guard it, and the Angels with flaming swords at hand to protect it... Like God did with the Tree of Life.
God then allows Satan into the Garden knowing his intention was to tempt them.
God gave them free agency to choose to eat it if they wanted.
God then leaves the Garden, where at least to Adam and Eve's knowledge, God was not around.
God only returns after it was too late to stop it.
Given this... It appears that God wanted Adam and Eve to leave the Garden. God just wasn't going to make the decision for them, they needed to make it for themselves.
Does this make Satan's part in it a righteous act?..... No!
Even though Satan didn't exactly lie when he told them they would be as the gods knowing good and evil, Satan wasn't concerned about seeing that God's Will was carried out. Satan was only concerned about himself. Because if Adam and Eve did not partake of the fruit, then man could not know good from evil or right from wrong. If man did not know right from wrong, then man could not be held accountable for sin. If man could not sin, then Satan could not gain followers. Satan's arrogance is that he believes when given the chance he will be able to draw away all of Gods children unto himself. In fact, he would have succeed in doing that (except for One) had God not planned the Atonement also; whereby man could be forgiven for having made wrong choices when they followed Satan.

 

[Niblo]

Then congratulations, you got my point... Although the analogy does not mirror my belief, it is meant to show the ridiculous and contradictory nature of those who believe Adam sinned by eating the fruit, and that the Fall was an evil act.
For if the Fall was the single greatest act of evil by one man, then that makes God culpable.
First God leaves Adam and Eve without the ability to know what they were doing was wrong.
God then made the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil a most desirable tree.
God then places the Tree right in the middle of the Garden.
God leaves the Tree unguarded when clearly God had the foreknowledge to know when to guard it, and the Angels with flaming swords at hand to protect it... Like God did with the Tree of Life.
God then allows Satan into the Garden knowing his intention was to tempt them.
God then leaves the Garden, where at least to Adam and Eve's knowledge, God was not around.
God only returns after it was too late to stop it.
Given this... It appears that God wanted Adam and Eve to leave the Garden. God just wasn't going to make the decision for them, they needed to make it for themselves.
Does this make Satan's part in it a righteous act?..... No!
Even though Satan didn't exactly lie when he told them they would be as the gods knowing good and evil, Satan wasn't concerned about seeing that God's Will was carried out. Satan was only concerned about himself. Because if Adam and Eve did not partake of the fruit, then man could not know good from evil or right from wrong. If man did not know right from wrong, then man could not be held accountable for sin. If man could not sin, then Satan could not gain followers. Satan's arrogance is that he believes when given the chance he will be able to draw away all of Gods children unto himself. In in fact would succeed in doing that (except for One) had God not planned the Atonement also; whereby man could be forgiven for having made wrong choices when they followed Satan.

Thus Spake Russell Ballard!

 

[Theway]

Thus Spake Russell Ballard!

Thank you, I'm in good company then.

Though I don't know exactly what talk you are referencing?
My thoughts on this matter are mostly my own, as I felt guided and taught by the Spirit in them. I would be curious however to see how close my views are to his.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you, I'm in good company then.

Though I don't know exactly what talk you are referencing?
My thoughts on this matter are mostly my own, as I felt guided and taught by the Spirit in them. I would be curious however to see how close my views are to his.

Follow your conscience.......always assuming it is well-informed!



‘The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine.’ (Abraham Lincoln).

 

[Theway]

Follow your conscience.......always assuming it is well-informed!

That's a problem... I find that it's hard to follow your conscience, because it always only kicks in after you've erred. I wish it would quite following me!

‘The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine.’ (Abraham Lincoln).

Good one... I like Abraham Lincoln, I'll have to use this quote some time

 

[LoAmmi]

That's a problem... I find that it's hard to follow your conscience, because it always only kicks in after you've erred. I wish it would quite following me!

Mine works just fine beforehand as long as I am considering what I am doing.