Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

New_Wineskin · Oct 3, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
Is David Wilkersons Church in NYC Pentecostal?
Cos I nearly got thrown outta there for wearing a turban - i was an art student, you see.

If not Pentecostal , I think a good chance that it was Charasmatic . Regardless , such things about clothing are not about the Pentecostal or Charasmatic doctrines but another example of legalism that can be found in all types of groups .

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

heron said:
"...accepted as starting point for an example of what is involved in changing the traditional church's thinking to accept home-church ideas."

Actually, this thread was about leaving a church, under the homechurch & unchurched forum. The original question was whether something drove individuals away from the church...not necessarily towards the home church structure.

I really saw no one complaining about Pentacostalism until well after you brought it up. I have only seen one post against it...as late as #127, out of the whole discussion.

Gee, in message #131 I already set out how message #97 and #105 responded directly to me on a part of the train of thought I was addressing on how seminary can institutionalize resistance to change. You didn't address that post then, but waited til now to comment on the train of thought. And, those messages were a condemnation of a very controversial Pentecostal minister, in the form of a historical tradition of attacking such ministers who adovate how the power of God can be experienced in everyday life, and they were entirely outside the the line of thought I was posting about. I pointed out that this is a method used to attack Pentecostalism in general, and indeed, after a review of the device was debated in detail, the thread went straight into running down Pentecostalism. It was a cheap shot to begin with, as well as a device to accomplish what ensued. But, that would be difficult to understand for people who like what was accomplished. "Why--any time Hinn is run down, it's only reasonable, because ultimately it makes so much sense. So let's make sure that it is understood, that running down Hinn as an assumed premise to any other part of a conversation should always be considered acceptable." Nope--I think what I understand is, that when people use devices for a cheap shot, I'll point it out, especially when it is attempted through posting with me.

Regards,

Paul

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

New_Wineskin said:
If not Pentecostal , I think a good chance that it was Charasmatic . Regardless , such things about clothing are not about the Pentecostal or Charasmatic doctrines but another example of legalism that can be found in all types of groups .

Would you say that I Corinthains 11:4,7 have any significance at all in regard to worship--or they can always be disregarded on the basis that they are legalistic??

Regards,

Paul

Dying2Live4Christ · Oct 3, 2005

I am not pushing church out of my life by any means. I guess I could say I had many "mini traumatic" experiments. Certainly enough problems were within my church that I decided I could not continue attending after 2 years. It still makes me sad, but I feel God will lead me to the right church at the right time.

discernomatic · Oct 4, 2005

heron said:
Actually, this thread was about leaving a church, under the homechurch & unchurched forum. The original question was whether something drove individuals away from the church...not necessarily towards the home church structure.

I must agree with heron, that this site has gotten off topic. Here is the orignal statement:

discernomatic said:
Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

I recently had a traumatic experience that kept me out of a church when I thought I finally had "come home" after many years of being away from them. Have you had one? If it is not fit to print here because of the restrictions you may send it to me via my website. Just click on my profile and then the site link. I will definitely handle it discreetly. If you want it posted on my site anonymously, I will consider posting it. I have some links to organizations that help in such matters but am looking for more. If you can help me in that way (you will be helping others as well), please send me a mail.

Anyone should feel free to post why he has left a church and why he is staying away without fear of criticism or reproach. The purpose of this thread is more to aid others with sympathy and compassion, telling them that they are not alone. Those that do not wish to post publicly can mail me. I am discreet and would never publish anyone's testimony without permission.

This is not a place to get converts or adherents for one type of church or another, whether this be a home church, underground church or up-in-the-air church....

Whoever wants to continue the discussion on Benny Hinn and co. can do this elsewhere, maybe in the Pentecostal section. Let us leave this thread clear for those who need to tell what happened to them, without reproach or criticism.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 4, 2005

New_Wineskin said:
If not Pentecostal , I think a good chance that it was Charasmatic . Regardless , such things about clothing are not about the Pentecostal or Charasmatic doctrines but another example of legalism that can be found in all types of groups .

ah copy that! they said it was Gods house and God didn't want me wearing a hat... I said God doesn't really care, God isn't that petty... i saw a few other people up the chain of command 'till they said it was church policy. i took it off then, as i was a visitor on their turf. sad though, when the church becomes "their" turf and not Gods - or "all peoples" even!!! - which comes back to the OP, methinks!!!!

Thanks Wino!

New_Wineskin · Oct 4, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
ah copy that! they said it was Gods house and God didn't want me wearing a hat... I said God doesn't really care, God isn't that petty... i saw a few other people up the chain of command 'till they said it was church policy. i took it off then, as i was a visitor on their turf. sad though, when the church becomes "their" turf and not Gods - or "all peoples" even!!! - which comes back to the OP, methinks!!!!

Thanks Wino!

Yep . I was raised Catholic and the buildings were also called "God's house" . And , we were not even allowed to talk in the building ( from what I remember being told when I was very young ) . Also , men were not allowed to where hats and women were requested to where something on their heads .

But , charasmatic Catholics say that Catholicism is charasmatic ( even though no mention of the Charasmatic doctrines was made to me the entire time that I was under their authority . So , who knows ?

C.F.W. Walther · Oct 5, 2005

NewSong said:
I am totally without a homechurch. I was forced out of mine when the pastor decided to dispose of me just last week. I am raw, hurting and have no idea where or what God wants to do with me.

I am afraid to trust again and feel that I cannot do so. I can't seem to hear God's direction over the hurt and trauma that has brought to the point I am without a church.

God Bless you.
NewSong

You don't know me and I don't know you but I see you are hurting and though that a birthday greeting might help........but ......I read some more of your post and I see you not excited about another one. Just think of it as a landmark in your life and all the people that you have affected with you witness.........God loves you

If Not For Grace · Oct 5, 2005

New Doors will open and old doors will close. Sometimes as humans we just can't see the forest for the trees.

Personally in my case I just want NOT to make the same mistakes I have made in the past. I still have FEAR which my immature spirituality has yet to eradicate. I'm sure as I grow this will diminish, but I would be lying if I said I did not sometimes experience anxieties over discerning spiritual things.

JesseRaymondBassett · Oct 10, 2005

Dying2Live4Christ said:
I am not pushing church out of my life by any means. I guess I could say I had many "mini traumatic" experiments. Certainly enough problems were within my church that I decided I could not continue attending after 2 years. It still makes me sad, but I feel God will lead me to the right church at the right time.

This is very much like my case. I love Church and the people at the one I go to. However the fact that no one knows their Bible is making me mad. I am going to try helping the Youth Bible Study for awhile and see how it goes. Perhaps God will use me to teach people the WORD?

However I often wonder why I'm being pushed down a path I don't see/agree with.

discernomatic · Oct 11, 2005

ZoraLink201 said:
This is very much like my case. I love Church and the people at the one I go to. However the fact that no one knows their Bible is making me mad. I am going to try helping the Youth Bible Study for awhile and see how it goes. Perhaps God will use me to teach people the WORD?

However I often wonder why I'm being pushed down a path I don't see/agree with.

I don't know very many Catholics that regularly read their bibles, even those that are quite devout. I have tried to get my Catholic friends to, but it is like talking to a brick wall. Until the Catholic Church might implement regular bible reading, I doubt that many will do it. Trying to "reform" your friends is almost a lost cause. Reforming the Church is an even greater obstacle. Tradition plays a great role, and traditionally Catholics were not to interpret Scripture for themselves, but adhere to the approved interpretation of the Church. That kind of dampens the ardor to look into Scripture oneself, I think. How do you approach this problem otherwise?

The solution for many that have posted here seems to be to remain outside of churches or for the more daring to look for another church. But the Catholic Church is very uniform, differing only superficially from country to country. Remaining outside of it would mean not receiving the Eucharist, which is central to Catholic belief. If you look for something completely different you would have to look outside of that denomination, I think.

heron · Oct 12, 2005

"Perhaps God will use me to teach people the WORD?"

Zoralink, I've found that people with a passion to correct or support something are usually the one that God is prompting to lead or fill that task. Members of the body are supposed to be different, using our strengths to build each other up. We are all urged to meditate on His Word day and night, so your decision to lead Bible studies can be a no-brainer. Go for it!

HawaiianTropicalDude · Oct 27, 2005

Nope.Just my parents being so out of it and the way they acted I didn't want any part of their church.

breezynosacek · Oct 28, 2005

M Paul said:
Frenzy??? Zoning Out??? That's not a Pentecostal understanding of what happens with the outpouring of Holy Spirit, but a description imposed on their practice of religion by others. It doesn't in any way resemble the meaning of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that I set out in the article on my web site, "Who Is the Holy Spirit," and I stick to the basics of Pentecostal theology. For instance, here is a quote of the very last paragraph of the article from the addendum.

"Cessationists also commonly maintain that Pentecostal power amounts to nothing more than excessive emotion conjured by highly excited services, which create general disorder and a delusion of spiritual power. There can be no doubt that an excessive degree of emotional excitement can cause delusions and exert control over the will. On the other hand, Scripture clearly indicates one must follow God with the entire heart, with intense emotion, Deuteronomy 11:13; Psalm 34:18; 37:4; 42:1,2; 139:21; Matthew 5:6,12; 9:36; Mark 3:5; John 2:17; Revelation 3:15-19. However, Scripture does not associate the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with emotion, but it even admonishes that tongues should be spoken with order, I Corinthians 14:26-33,39,40. The fact that some people confuse emotion with the Baptism does not mean that Pentecostals are emotional in general. However, Pentecostals recognize that neither can genuine, heart felt emotion for praising God be denied."

In another article I give a synopse of Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections, as an example of how to put emotion in perspective. And in another article, I set out synopses of works by Charles Finney, the grandfather of Pentecostalism, which provides further examples of how to put emotion into perspective, and it is very common in Pentecostal environments to review the works of these men. For instance, here is a summary description from my web site of Letter Six, "Excitment in Revivals," of Charles Finney's Revival Fire.

"In every age of the Church, there have been genuine manifestations of divine truth through the means of being slain in the Spirit, just as the prophet Daniel and the apostle Paul serve for examples. However, in real cases of this overwhelming power, the intelligence is not stultified or confused. The person remains calm. There are no tears or unusual displays of emotion, but the mind sees truth unveiled. The incidents occur by a simple revelation of God, not by external means adapted to the result, or by appeals to excite the imagination."

However, it seems that people who want to note that Pentecostals are "frenzied" and "zoned out," primarily cite the examples of, "well, I went to a Charismatic church once, and you would not believe what the maniacs were doing." Yes, it's a first hand account of CHARISMATIC CHAOS. But, the Pentecostal works such as those found on my web site that represent Pentecostalism as anything but excessive emotion and chaos--well, somehow they get overlooked, and the people with the first hand accounts don't know anything about them.

Yes, some Christians are on a mission to let everyone know, that there's now well over half a billion fake believers in the world constantly going into a state of "frenzy" and "zoning out," who need drugs to calm themselves down, and who want to lead the church into an insane asylum, because they do the work of Beelzubub. What can the true believers do?? Well, it seems one common suggestion is to take advantage of every opportunity to let the truth be known, even if it means setting aside some time that normally would go to helping people understand that the Pope is the anti-Christ, (and that's why all the Catholics will burn in hell--right beside the Pentecostals, of course), and even if it means going completely off topic in an internet forum, because sometimes the truth just has to be told sideways--it's a fact of life about how things are done.

It's a good thing that Breezy's suggestion was not far off the wall, because the documented evidence is missing.

Regards,

Paul

Paul,

I rebuke you in Jesus' name!

Why are you attacking me? Because I pointed out that there are many apostate teachers today? Because I pointed out one in particular that I knew from personal experience was false?

I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I believe in speaking and praying in tongues. I believe in laying on of hands, healing the sick and casting out demons in Jesus' name because I have done so.

What you are doing is standing up for a denomination.

What I am doing and saying doesn't have anything to do with a denomination but with whether or not someone is a false teacher and is apostate.

We are talking about church abuse and you act as if you are just as abusive as those we are talking about. And, furthermore, with your attitude I certainly wouldn't go to your website and read any articles.

breezynosacek · Oct 28, 2005

And futhermore Paul.... It's people with your kind of attitude is the very reason I won't step foot into another brick and mortar church unless God tells me I have to.

See, if I want to get attacked by people all I have to do is tell them about Jesus but on this forum, all I have to do is critic the doctrines of someone's idol.

I think the media is really good at picking up on the spiritual condition of our nation.

Just watch TV. American Idol, Ghost Whisperer, Medium, ect.

I talked to a lady tonight that thought spirit guides were angels sent by God to guide us.

You make me cry Paul.

If this is what the Churches in America have come to, just how much longer can the body of Christ keep on going until He returns?

And sadly, that is the question that I keep getting asked by other unchurched believers who have been wounded or have left because of false teachers.

Luke 18:8 I tell you, He will defend {and} protect {and} avenge them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find [persistence in] faith on the earth?

heron · Oct 28, 2005

Acts 23:6
Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)

There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

These were the influential leaders of the faith that decade, trying to destroy each other.

HawaiianTropicalDude, thanks for popping in to tell your story. It's sad that Christians sometimes lead us away from God! Keep Him for yourself during this time that you don't trust the churches, and He will continue to lead you. He knew what was going on.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 28, 2005

Nice rant breezy.

I find many people feel uncomfortablke or threatened when they say "what church do you go to" and I say, "oh, we murdered our church", or "as a church we have become unchurched in order to church it with the non-church" (if you can riddle that one out, it's pretty much what I'm about!).

Persoanlly I was shocked to start with because EVERY non-christian I have explained my position to will say, "well of course, church meetings and buildings are irrlevant and nothing to do with God - that's why I don't go there!". I ONLY HAD TROUBLE WITH THE CHRISTIAN'S!! But ot all, of course! Some are patronising, some see us as backsliders! Some get it, and wish us luck or ask how to be involved.

Either way, my point is that christians, especially those in religious denominations that have to fight with the beliefs and practices of other denominations or even religions!, will usually be threatened by matter-of-fact personal experience. And usually call it unBiblical to base something on common-sense, without proof-texting it!

And don't get me started on proof-texting! I think Phelps is the best proof-texter about at the moment, and look at what his lot do!!!!!

Flanny out.

If Not For Grace · Oct 28, 2005

fight with the beliefs and practices of other denominations

We don't have to fight, and even if others do, we do not have to DROP OUT of the Church. The way to change an organization often times is from within.
You know Jesus went to Temple, even though those in "power" rejected Him for the most part.

New_Wineskin · Oct 28, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
Persoanlly I was shocked to start with because EVERY non-christian I have explained my position to will say, "well of course, church meetings and buildings are irrlevant and nothing to do with God - that's why I don't go there!". I ONLY HAD TROUBLE WITH THE CHRISTIAN'S!! But ot all, of course! Some are patronising, some see us as backsliders! Some get it, and wish us luck or ask how to be involved.

*That* really *is* the interesting thing - isn't it ? Doctrines so fog the mind and put them in such a box that a very simple view of what is going on in the groups goes over their heads - not even a hint of understanding .

Either way, my point is that christians, especially those in religious denominations that have to fight with the beliefs and practices of other denominations or even religions!, will usually be threatened by matter-of-fact personal experience. And usually call it unBiblical to base something on common-sense, without proof-texting it!

They get so paranoid if not every dot is placed and every tiddle isn't just right . Their doctrine *must* be correct . So , whenever something is said that threatens the doctrine , instead of looking to see if a better doctrine is out there , they would rather defend the possible wrong doctrine . Why ? Could it be that *if* they are wrong on one doctrine , they could be wrong on many others ? They would rather keep a lie than look for truth even though they claim they are always looking for truth .

breezynosacek · Oct 28, 2005

Thanks guys...and yeah, I know it was a rant. I even thought about coming back and deleting it, but I'm getting pretty fed up with turn the other cheek so that someone can continue to spout something that isn't even rational and then shut my mouth about it as if I was the one that was a false teacher.

Sorta have issues about that. Learning when to stand for what I've said and when to let others go on being blind or misguided and when to allow others to be wrong. I don't like debate, never have. I don't know that it does the hearers much good. But, when somebody wrongly accuses me or tries to put words in my mouth, I quit standing there like a dumb deer in the headlights.

Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

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When I am slain may my corpse lie facing the Enemy

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