Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

M Paul · Oct 2, 2005

heron said:
My comments were not totally unrelated to what others said. They were unrelated to one very small subtopic of Hinn withing this discussion. My last few posts related to new wineskin's and breezy's comments, and trying to respond to your misinterpretation of my posts.

I haven't seen anyone's comments totally off-related. But I am feeling I am wasting my time trying to fend off whatever you think imagine am saying. The thread is about reasons people feel the need to leave church. Maybe feeling misunderstood and not listened to, lol?

Not a big deal.

It's important for people who've seen injustices and felt uncomfortable with practices to have a place to put them. If someone's problem was with Hinn, they should feel free to say that. I really don't think this was turning into an anti-Hinn slam, or an anti-pentecostalism flame, or whatever. People are just sharing their experiences and trying to get past them.

Well, message #97, page 10, is addressed to me, regarding my comments that began with noting that resistance to change can come from a seminary with some denominations. And, then it throws in what's wrong with Hinn, and by message #105 it is total condemnation.

Hinn is one of the most controversial figures in Christianity, and he is often subject to intense and unethical criticism of the worst kind, and he is often used as a basis to denounce Pentecostalism. Thus, if someone wants to run him down, in my opinion he/she should have evidence, not just his/her word that he is no good. And, they should pick the right spot to make the comments, not outside the train of thought of a conversation, which is a sideways technique for a cheap shot. Now, I don't know that much about Hinn, but I know the nature of the opposition against him, and how it is used--and when techniques are employed that resemble entirely time honored methods to run people down, I point them out.

It's important for people who have suffered abuse to find ways to express what they have experienced and to deal with it. But, following time honored techniques for smearing controversial people doesn't have to be condoned as the proper way to do it.

As far as your comments, whether you were aware of it or not, they reinforced the unsubstantiated comments of Breeze, and just as his comments should have been addressed, so should have yours.

And, of course, it wasn't meant as an attack against Pentecostals--it never is--it just coincidentally accomplished that purpose, even though there is no documented evidence. Very convenient.

Well, I've been around the techniques too long not to respond when I'm involved.

Regards,

Paul

PS.. The quotes by me you made in short, were used in proper context to demonstrate how the basis of what I was commenting about was prejudice, and my right to respond to them.

heron · Oct 2, 2005

The comments against Hinn came from one person, who had attended his church and had friends that were members of his church. That's not unsubstantiated. The person was sharing direct reason for leaving a church, one that happens to be familiar to us all, in line with the OP.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 3, 2005

I thought it was taken as read that Hinn sucked... but my info may be outta date... he loves money right? And all the 9-fold trinity bull, and then some!

Or has he turned a new leaf... again?

discernomatic · Oct 3, 2005

breezynosacek said:
One of the first things I now warn those that are determined to find a church is, "don't let them lay hands on you and be careful what you come into agreement with (give your amen's to)".

I know this is going to sound off the wall. The Lord taught me to pray for discernment before going into a new church. Don't participate, stand back and watch and pray and listen. Look up every single Bible passage. That's how I spotted what was wrong in Hinn's Church. I had prior to that gotten caught up in the praise and worship but when I went back that last time, I prayed and watched.

Your post was not off the wall but in the middle of the target. I agreed with it from beginning to end and I think that this was the best piece of advice to give to anyone. Never go into a church or revival-type situation and just go with the flow. Look everything up to see if it is in context and OBSERVE, DISCERN! Don't just trust people because they seem spiritual, have umpteen doctoral degrees, are attractive, because the music is great or even because you sense something that everyone is calling the Holy Spirit. It just might not be the Holy Spirit, no matter how many say it is. Both Judas and the devil himself were present at the last supper.

heron · Oct 3, 2005

I wouldn't normally battle it out like this, Paul, but there are thousands of people in every city (except the small population ones) who have left the church for valid reasons. You know that, being involved in the home church movement. We need to listen to these reasons, and recognize them, since few friends in their churches supported them during that time.

heron · Oct 3, 2005

Never go into a church or revival-type situation and just go with the flow. Look everything up to see if it is in context and OBSERVE, DISCERN!

It's also useful to enter a place with a proactive stance to pray for people in the room. Instead of deciding whether we belong, we can look for why God directed us there at that time. We can participate in the flow of what God's doing, whether they are or not.

discernomatic · Oct 3, 2005

M Paul said:
Oh sure. But the thing about Hinn is that he is Pentecostal. And, the prejudice against Pentecostals has been around as long as they have....
However one thing the people who want to smear Pentecostals just don't get is, how obvious their schemes are. That's why they don't work--so that by 100 years after the Azusa Street Revival, Pentecostals were bringing 50 million believers a years under their ministries, and by today, the number is still increasing so fast, no one can keep count....
"The scale of Christian growth is almost unimaginable," said Dr. Philip Jenkins, distinguished professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State University.

Jenkins shocked and probably panicked some of America's political and media elite with his acclaimed book, The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity. Jenkins argues the greatest movement of the past century was not communism or capitalism. Do the math and the winner is spirit-filled Christianity, or what he terms in his study as "Pentecostalism."

So, as far as Hinn goes, the condemnation will continue, and the great majority of it, well it might just as well be written on toilet paper, for the truth that can be found in it.That's just how prejudice and truth works.

My criticism of Benny Hinn is not because he is pentecostal but because he teaches false doctrine. I admit I used to like that sort of doctrine. The problem is that some pentecostals like his teaching and spread it. Even the Italian branch of the AoG is not exempt from his influence though they have been able to avoid some of the present pitfalls of their American sister church.

I think that I can express criticism about at least some factors of the Pentecostal Movement. I have read the book written by the founder of American pentecostalism, Frank Bartleman, Azusa Street, and have found evidence of false doctrine on almost every single page. Taking notes was wearying to say the least. I have not had the time to write it all up, but I am quite convinced that the errors that were there already at the beginning of the movement have been maintained and even increased to this day in most pentecostal circles. Benny Hinn is only one manifestation of that error. Note that I say error rather than sin. I believe that there are many born-again Christians within the walls of Pentecostal churches, but that many of them are gravely misled. The first of three pages of a good critique by an eyewitness, G. H. Lang, is here: http://www.intotruth.org/tb/lang.html.

I am also critical of what could be called Global Christianity. Scripture tells of a global entity that will call itself the church, but it is portrayed as a harlot. The true church will be persecuted, and at least some of its members martyred. True Christianity will be dwindling rather than growing. If any church or alliance of churches is growing explosively enough to encompass the world, it will not be the true church, but an impostor. We have been warned about this already.

Jenkins didn't shock all of the political elite. He is playing into their hands. More than a few condone the use of American military power to increase the size of the church or its influence via American leaders over other countries. This was something that Jesus did not preach. It is not part of the gospel. Any gospel that contains Kingdom Now theology or the concepts of Spiritual Mapping and Spiritual Warfare which can lead to it is not the gospel that Jesus Christ lived and preached; it would be another gospel, incapable of bringing salvation.

discernomatic · Oct 3, 2005

heron said:
It's also useful to enter a place with a proactive stance to pray for people in the room. Instead of deciding whether we belong, we can look for why God directed us there at that time. We can participate in the flow of what God's doing, whether they are or not.

Yes, I agree with you on that.

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

heron said:
The comments against Hinn came from one person, who had attended his church and had friends that were members of his church. That's not unsubstantiated. The person was sharing direct reason for leaving a church, one that happens to be familiar to us all, in line with the OP.

Oh, so if one person says condemning things about another, they should be considered substantiated, if he/she has actually had contact with the other person. Then, we know George Bush is no good too. People who know him have said so. It's substantiated.

Actually, I believe there's more to it than that, but when people want to set up all new standards for condemning others that are so simple, well, that's an indication of prejudice.

Regards,

Paul

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
I thought it was taken as read that Hinn sucked... but my info may be outta date... he loves money right? And all the 9-fold trinity bull, and then some!

Or has he turned a new leaf... again?

To tell you the truth, Hinn might have some problems. I don't know that much about him. However, he is Pentecostal and degrading him is used to condemn Pentecostals in general, because he is so popular and he preaches the power of God, and it all stems from a long tradition in America of condemning successfull revivalists who preach depending that power. Thus, when I see someone go off tangent to post condemning comments that are unsubstantiated, which is all the more serious with a person as controversial as Hinn, I point out that it appears a very typical and prejudicial device is being employed to run someone down, especially when the comments are directed at me.

Regards,

Paul

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

heron said:
I wouldn't normally battle it out like this, Paul, but there are thousands of people in every city (except the small population ones) who have left the church for valid reasons. You know that, being involved in the home church movement. We need to listen to these reasons, and recognize them, since few friends in their churches supported them during that time.

And we need to recognize there is a proper way to review these matters in posting and an improper way. In my opinion, going off tangent in one thread to make unsubstantiated comments to condemn a controversial figure is--a device for other purposes. I have the right to say that, but people who don't like the controversial figure may not think so. There are other ways to review the controversy concerning Hinn, or to bring up the possibility of abuse by him, rather than just having condemnation of him accepted as starting point for an example of what is involved in changing the traditional church's thinking to accept home-church ideas.

Regards,

Paul

heron · Oct 3, 2005

This article speaks to me of our tendency to lump things together, our desire to categorize, label and homogenize what we see. It is as if God says yes, I will work with you, but will pause when you start to rebuild Babel.

Whenever an effective movement starts, each member is responsible for ensuring his own righteousness and relationship with God. We want to make it a blanket covering, that those who prove themselves capable of performing get acceptance and prominence in the wake.

There is no movement, no organization that has ever proven itself perfect before God. There are instead individuals who allow themselves to be redeemed and supported by God.

I laughed at the comment about hymnbooks--that in 1925, they were considered commercially-driven and trendy. (-:

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

discernomatic said:
My criticism of Benny Hinn is not because he is pentecostal but because he teaches false doctrine. I admit I used to like that sort of doctrine. The problem is that some pentecostals like his teaching and spread it. Even the Italian branch of the AoG is not exempt from his influence though they have been able to avoid some of the present pitfalls of their American sister church.

I think that I can express criticism about at least some factors of the Pentecostal Movement. I have read the book written by the founder of American pentecostalism, Frank Bartleman, Azusa Street, and have found evidence of false doctrine on almost every single page. Taking notes was wearying to say the least. I have not had the time to write it all up, but I am quite convinced that the errors that were there already at the beginning of the movement have been maintained and even increased to this day in most pentecostal circles. Benny Hinn is only one manifestation of that error. Note that I say error rather than sin. I believe that there are many born-again Christians within the walls of Pentecostal churches, but that many of them are gravely misled. The first of three pages of a good critique by an eyewitness, G. H. Lang, is here: http://www.intotruth.org/tb/lang.html.

I am also critical of what could be called Global Christianity. Scripture tells of a global entity that will call itself the church, but it is portrayed as a harlot. The true church will be persecuted, and at least some of its members martyred. True Christianity will be dwindling rather than growing. If any church or alliance of churches is growing explosively enough to encompass the world, it will not be the true church, but an impostor. We have been warned about this already.

Jenkins didn't shock all of the political elite. He is playing into their hands. More than a few condone the use of American military power to increase the size of the church or its influence via American leaders over other countries. This was something that Jesus did not preach. It is not part of the gospel. Any gospel that contains Kingdom Now theology or the concepts of Spiritual Mapping and Spiritual Warfare which can lead to it is not the gospel that Jesus Christ lived and preached; it would be another gospel, incapable of bringing salvation.

Oh, so condemning Hinn leads to a running down of Pentecostalism. Thank you for demonstrating my point of what the true motvie appeared to be. So, it appears Breeze accomplished his mission in the thread.

Well, thank you for your personal opinion on what is wrong with Pentecostals. However, like them or not, I think you should get used to us. We're growing at well over the rate of 50 million new converts per year. When the Azusa Street Revival occurred in 1906, the cessationist Christians noted we were possessed by demons and a false version of Christianity. Pentecostals noted the criticism was not accurate and even very often outright dishonest. But they followed Charles Finney's advice-- Don't answer those who want to drag us into strife over whether the power of God still works in the present life. Just preach what we know is the truth. So, Pentecostals have always had faith that the cheap shots, the prejudice, the false condemnation would not work. It appears they were right. Want to compare the statistics on how many people are coming to Christ under the ministries of cessationist Christianity??? It will be pathetic, but we could do it.

As far as points of theology, I could debate anyone who wants to do so honestly--that is in fairness--keeping in mind I point out cheap shots and devices, but for now my focus is on the house church movement, and I am satisified with the representation of Pentecostal theology set out on my web page. Of course, in debate, statements of Pentecostal theology never mean what the Pentecostals say they mean, so my web site doesn't mean what it says either--that is, to the Cessationists.

Regards,

Paul

PS--for your info, Bartleman is not the founder of Pentecostalism. If there is such a thing, it's William Seymour. Bartleman wrote a diary, and in it, he has some description of what he saw at the Azusa Street mission. There aren't many eye witness accounts of those services, and that is why he is popular.

If Not For Grace · Oct 3, 2005

The first of three pages of a good critique by an eyewitness, G. H. Lang

,Much like the disclaimer at the top of the article, I cannot agree with all the conclusions either. I say let us read, pray and study and perhaps each can draw or have his own conclusion revealed.

With regard to Benny Hinn, I have heard him say with regard to dedicating one's life/soul to the Lord that "nothing is greater than that". Who can find fault here--it is not I.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 3, 2005

Is David Wilkersons Church in NYC Pentecostal?
Cos I nearly got thrown outta there for wearing a turban - i was an art student, you see.

M Paul · Oct 3, 2005

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
Is David Wilkersons Church in NYC Pentecostal?
Cos I nearly got thrown outta there for wearing a turban - i was an art student, you see.

Maybe, the problem was I Corinthians 11:4,7. Is Wilkerson the guy with the cross and the switchblade thing. Then, I think he is.

Regards,

Paul

heron · Oct 3, 2005

"...accepted as starting point for an example of what is involved in changing the traditional church's thinking to accept home-church ideas."

Actually, this thread was about leaving a church, under the homechurch & unchurched forum. The original question was whether something drove individuals away from the church...not necessarily towards the home church structure.

I really saw no one complaining about Pentacostalism until well after you brought it up. I have only seen one post against it...as late as #127, out of the whole discussion.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 3, 2005

M Paul said:
Is Wilkerson the guy with the cross and the switchblade thing. Then, I think he is.

Regards,

Paul

yes. and his church was very dissappointing.

If Not For Grace · Oct 3, 2005

I remember the movie but no little about the Church. IMHO the best thing I'v heard here is advice on discernment and the statement:

contrived worship happens in the best of churches, with the most well-meaning people, and it's easy to let it slide once in a while. It starts with "let's give people a chance to free-worship between these two songs," builds with innocent decisions of matching appropriate songs to the sermons, and starts to warp when people try to protect an atmosphere or a plan or a person. Anything can spin out of control, including regimentatedquiet.

If Not For Grace · Oct 3, 2005

contrived worship happens in the best of churches, with the most well-meaning people, and it's easy to let it slide once in a while. It starts with "let's give people a chance to free-worship between these two songs," builds with innocent decisions of matching appropriate songs to the sermons, and starts to warp when people try to protect an atmosphere or a plan or a person. Anything can spin out of control, including regimentatedquiet.

This and advice on discernment was the best thing I have heard here. IMHO
we should be careful before we end up throwing out the baby with the wash water.

Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

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