Dialing down

[Criada]

I agree with you, Jim.
Worship has to come from the heart, not from the instruction of a worship leader.
In our church, some people worship exhuberantly ,dance and clap. Others are quieter.
Both are accepted, and no one is told what to do - by anyone other than the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes the meeting is loud, sometimes quiet and contemplative. God can't be limited to one style of worship - and no one but God knows whether I am worshipping in spirit and in truth, or putting on an act.
(Occasionally, the latter is the case - but that is my problem, and not because someone told me to!)

 

[JimB]

Please accept my apologies, especially Jim.

I was wrong to post such a thing in your thread.

I don't know how to explain the frustration I feel when I read one of Jim's posts. It seems that he is forever bring up things that are wrong. My very narrow view of a pastor is one who would at least at times bring something of encouragement. I find none in his threads. He is five of the most negative people I know.

This is only my observation, I will ask again that you accept my apologies for posting like that in your thread. I will not be disturbing your threads again.

But you don’t know me, B. We’ve never met and you have no idea what kind of person, much less pastor, I am. Sorry that you find my posts “negative” but my guess is anyone who disagrees with you is, by your definition, negative.

BTW, Did you see my thread on God bless the Southern Baptists!! I would say it was positive, even by your definition. Why don’t you post something positive on that thread and show us how it’s done?

If you consider this an apology “especially to Jim” you need to define for me what you mean when you say “apology.” Some might consider your post pretty negative.

I would like to keep this thread free from personal insults and insinuations (if you don't mind).

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[ralangley]

Jim,

Just to let you know, I enjoy your posts. I've learned from you in that you've challenged me to explore issues that I never considered before, or look at common practices in a different way. I don't necessarily agree with you all the time, in fact, many times I decidedly disagree with you, but I always respect your intelligence and your dignified responses. Thank you for your posts, and please, do keep them coming!!

Now, back to the show.....

 

[Trish1947]

Being a former Baptist we were dialed down alot, other than an occastional sound of weeping, as we all felt from within the presence of the Lord. So when we came to PC, I thought what in the world is this? It has never been my personality to be demonstrative. So I understand Jim, where your coming from. I'm still not "in-line' with this sort of demonstration of what people must be feeling. I'm still a crier, I don't know if I inherited this in my earlier days being a Baptist, but I'm pretty convienced it's just my nature to react this way, when the presence of the Lord is obvious. I will be crying, no matter who is trying to orchastrate worship. Which is a little irritating when you know your not prepared unless you've filled your purse with kleenex, and on top of that, your being asked to do something else. Personally I think this is my involuntary action to the presence of God because I've had this happen even in my sleep and wake up with my face wet with tears if I have dreamed of Him. I'm just a bawl baby. LOL.

 

[charityagape]

Dialing-down … Have you ever felt this way?

I have always been an analytical, undemonstrative type who receives my “blessing” in different ways than my more overexcitable P/C friends. For years I felt out of place and often less-than-spiritual in P/C worship services because I could not work up some hyper expression of what I felt.​

I would be urged from the platform to “lift my hands,” “shout hallelujah,” “shake a hand,” “turn to someone and say _____[something silly]_____,” “stand,” “sit,” “speak,” “roll over,” “beg,” “wag your tail” … none of which I felt necessary to enhance what I was already receiving from God. People around me would respond as suggested and would do what they were told. Sometimes I did it myself and wound up feeling less than genuine and, well, to tell the truth, feeling kind of stupid. I would even avoid such hyperactive meetings and even wondered whether or not I belonged. It even, at one point, caused me to question my faith.

Then, some years ago, I attended another kind of P/C service where, when the meeting became a little, um, over-exuberant, the leader told us to “dial down” a bit and not let our response to God be determined by what we felt on an emotional level. The audience quieted and the Spirit began to quietly in dove-like fashion move over people without any hype or manipulation on the part of the leader. There was a visible emotional response in some people (weeping, lifting hands, kneeling, etc.) but in some it was purely an internal thing—but we all, withfew exceptions, sensed the presence of God. I was amazed at how I suddenly felt a connection to God and how He was able to do a work in me that evening. ​

When worship leaders shout things like, “Wow, if you could only feel out there what I’m feeling up here you could not just sit there” or compare what you should be feeling in church service to what people feel at a football game, how does that make you feel? Does it help or hinder your response to what God is doing for/in/through you? Do you think we might see more of God if we P/C’s would learn to dial-down sometimes?

~Jim

Gross ignorance is 144 times worse than the normal kind.​

I think it would just be opposite pressure. I don't think you should be pressured to jump up and down etc (although what you think is wrong with turning to someone and saying something like you're blessed, I don't know) anyway I don't think you should be pressured to "act out" and I don't think your pc brothers should be pressured to "dial down".

All that matters is genuine expression.

 

[Questioning Christian]

I don't think it's about dialing down, up, or any kind of way. It's about the relationship you have with God.

A father interacts differently with his eight-year-old from how he does with his fifteen-year-old. Their personalities make a difference too. Look at Isaac, and how he related better to Esau, whereas Rebekah related more to Jacob, because Esau was his father's son, and Jacob was a momma's boy - and indoorsman. Jacob was plain. He dwelled in tents. He cooked. He probably hung drapes in the tents, and suggested little soaps for the back of the toilet. He was just an inside dude. His mom favored him. His dad favored Esau. Esau was more of a son to make a father feel like he'd made a little man, than Jacob was.

So we all relate to God differently. One who is just saved will have different praise from a decades-saved saint.

It all comes down to your heart, and how you personally interact with God. And that is only between you and Him.

 

[tturt]

Being quiet doesn’t always mean revere and being loud doesn’t always mean worshiping.

We've all got religious boxes - things that should or shouldn't be done and of course, they vary per person. Sometimes I think people are in charismatic churches but really don't want to be there b/c of tongues or worship styles, etc.


They entered Moses' tabernacle with praise and thanksgiving to God. David's tabernacle was certainly a place of praise - 24/7 with all types of musical instruments.

Psa 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name. 1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

 

[Stormswept]

Why does a persons experience of the Church service come from 'what others perceive'? Why is it we care what the people up the front might see or what someone behind us might think?

For me, I attend a loud, very charismatic and Biblical based church, which is Pentecostal in name and nature. They dance and sing and are well.. loud.

Even in that context, I can follow where God is leading me to be. Sometimes I find a moment of great peace and great silence in the middle of the led service described above. I follow as the Spirit leads.

Sometimes I find I want to dance and sing too.

I gave up caring what people think of me. I have a chronic pain illness, which at this time God has not chosen to heal, and so I cant stand in Church for long periods of time. I can't afford to worry about what other people think or I would never be there.

The thing is, I find God also in Anglican and other denominations, I found great things in the Taize service I went to once as well, God is there in the loud, and in the quiet. Both are valid forms of worship.
And tho I would agree if someone were to say we dont seek the silence enough as people in general, we rush through things and seem to hate just resting in quietness. (off soap box - different point!)

Just my thoughts on this, and Ive thought long and hard lol because of the nature of the Church we attend.
Bless
Jaki

 

[JimB]

Why does a persons experience of the Church service come from 'what others perceive'? Why is it we care what the people up the front might see or what someone behind us might think?

*****

Could it be because we are instructed to be considerate of others when we are in corporate worship? That’s what the Apostle's advice in 1 Corinthians 14 is all about …

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you [others] speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you [others] either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known [by others] what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who [others] will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand [by others], how will it be known [by others] what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him [others] who speaks, and he [others] who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church [others] that you seek to excel . . . ​

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding [of others]. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding [of others]. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed [others] say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he [others] does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church [others] I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach othersalso, than ten thousand words in a tongue . . . ​

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together [with others], each of you [including others] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification [of others]. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret [for others]. 28 But if there is no interpreter [for others], let him keep silent in church [others], and let him speak to himself and to God 29 Let two or three prophets [others] speak, and let the othersjudge. 30 But if anything is revealed to anotherwho sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all [others] prophesy one by one, that all [others] may learn and all [others] may be encouraged . . .​

34 Let your women [others] keep silent in the churches, for they [others] are not permitted to speak; but they [others] are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they [others] want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home . . . ​

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.​

It don’t get much plainer than that. Saying “to h*ll with what others think” is no way to conduct a public gathering.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[Stormswept]

Could it be because we are instructed to be considerate of others when we are in corporate worship? That’s what the Apostle's advice in 1 Corinthians 14 is all about …
It don’t get much plainer than that. Saying “to h*ll with what others think” is no way to conduct a public gathering.

~Jim

I didn't say conduct, i meant the person in the pew. When I was leading, i held to conventions expected of a leader.
In a church where it has oft been said that we should worship as we are led. We should not be consumed by the fear that someone is watching us. We should be honest and real - and respond as God's leading enables. Considerate, is not living with fear of what others think of you. It is not doing something that would offend or contradict the Biblical constraint of worship. There is a difference between being considerate and being worried about what Fred behind me thinks or what Joe worship leader thinks of me. The only one whom I care a great deal of the opinion of, in how I worship as a pew sitter (rather than someone on stage) is God.

There are certain boundaries in leadership, but we were talking about seeking stillness and loudly praising in corporate services as participants not as leaders correct?
Jaki

 

[JimB]

I didn't say conduct, i meant the person in the pew. When I was leading, i held to conventions expected of a leader.
In a church where it has oft been said that we should worship as we are led. We should not be consumed by the fear that someone is watching us. We should be honest and real - and respond as God's leading enables. Considerate, is not living with fear of what others think of you. It is not doing something that would offend or contradict the Biblical constraint of worship. There is a difference between being considerate and being worried about what Fred behind me thinks or what Joe worship leader thinks of me. The only one whom I care a great deal of the opinion of, in how I worship as a pew sitter (rather than someone on stage) is God.

There are certain boundaries in leadership, but we were talking about seeking stillness and loudly praising in corporate services as participants not as leaders correct?
Jaki

I guess my main focus is manipulative leaders and gullible followers who worship God monkey-see-monkey-do fashion. Where the danger comes in is confusing a worked-up hyper-emotional pep-rally atmosphere as being the presence of God. When God’s presence is confused with emotional elation how will people know when it is actually God?

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[Stormswept]

God does speak through emotions (some people tell me so) however I seriously doubt I am ever going to mix the two things up - I am not exactly the emotional type. I also wonder if this is something that a Church needs to define and figure out for themselves, Biblically speaking, rather than something that can be lined up and discussed on a forum. If you are speaking about people being mis-led.
On the other hand if you are talking about the experience of someone in the pew, perhaps as I said, a different definition would be beneficial. Your OP isn't exactly that, since being quiet does not negate the emotional charge or perceived emotional charge in my experience.

Essentially: How do we know what we are seeing/feeling/experiencing is of God? How do we know when it is not?

Bless.
Jaki

 

[Trish1947]

I guess my main focus is manipulative leaders and gullible followers who worship God monkey-see-monkey-do fashion. Where the danger comes in is confusing a worked-up hyper-emotional pep-rally atmosphere as being the presence of God. When God’s presence is confused with emotional elation how will people know when it is actually God?

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

Here's something to think about. It might not be our nature to worship a certain way, or we may just not feel like doing it a particular way. But when you read Psalms, concerning corporate worship and praise, it comes across as more of an instruction on how to praise God rather than this is what you should "feel" like doing, or feelings you should be having. "Lift your voices to God in Praise," Lift up holy hands", "those in the congregation sing praises unto the Lord," "play the cymbals, and stringed instraments, the psaltry and the harp". "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord".. It's not that you may feel anything at all, but the main point seems to being made here, is that He is worthy of it, and apparently pleases Him is the main thing. During this type of worship and praise, it's not really about us and our emotions. Not to say they won't come into play.

 

[tturt]

Trish1047, amen.

 

[JimB]

Me too, Trish.



~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[habeas]

Here's something to think about. It might not be our nature to worship a certain way, or we may just not feel like doing it a particular way. But when you read Psalms, concerning corporate worship and praise, it comes across as more of an instruction on how to praise God rather than this is what you should "feel" like doing, or feelings you should be having. "Lift your voices to God in Praise," Lift up holy hands", "those in the congregation sing praises unto the Lord," "play the cymbals, and stringed instraments, the psalty and the harp". "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord".. It's not that you may feel anything at all, but the main point seems to being made here, is that He is worthy of it, and apparently pleases Him is the main thing. During this type of worship and praise, it's not really about us and our emotions. Not to say they won't come into play.

Amen! Also, sometimes when you praise God and you start out not "into" it, you stir up the gift, it is a sacrifice...precisely because it is not natural initially, and then suddenly you are overwhelmed in your heart for God and no one has to tell you to lift your hands...and shout...its as if the rocks would cry out if you did not.

 

[charityagape]

I guess my main focus is manipulative leaders and gullible followers who worship God monkey-see-monkey-do fashion. Where the danger comes in is confusing a worked-up hyper-emotional pep-rally atmosphere as being the presence of God. When God’s presence is confused with emotional elation how will people know when it is actually God?

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

How do you know that the quiet person crying in the pew is not working off of worked up emotion? Loud and jumping for joy does not equate fake anymore than quiet equates to a fear of people watching you.

You answer only to God for the genuine quality of worship you give, no one else can sit and judge and say he's too loud and emotional or he's too quiet and unemotional, because you simply do not know.

 

[Elisha1961]

When I first was baptized with the Holy Spirit I tended to be more exuberant...attended a WOF where they were told to dance in the aisles for a time each service, I participated happily...as I have matured spiritually, and aged naturally maybe...I am finding myself growing more quiet before the Lord...my worship is more intense in the quiet. Pastor exhorts us to be loud, celebrate, but most times the Presence of the Lord is too intense to dance, to jump.

 

[JimB]

Pep rallies are great and, I suppose, prepare (energize, psyche up) the fans (spectators) for the game but the players had better be prepared already through those tedious afternoon scrimmages and planning sessions with the coach. If a mature player has to wait until the Sunday pep-rally to be primed by the cheerleader (a/k/a worship leader) for the game it is probably too late to win the victory.

Are pep rallies necessary? Probably not. But if they are, they're only for the spectators, not the players.

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​

 

[JimB]

I know a kid who is ADHD. He cannot receive instruction because he is always primed to full-throttle unable to slow down long enough to learn anything. He thinks his life is normal—everyone else knows better.

Do you think there are ADHD Christians who are unable to learn from God because they feel they must be revved to the prime before their Christianity is normal? Do you think a shot of spiritual Ritalin (stillness, dialing down) would do them some good and help them learn?

~Jim

Friends are chocolate chips in the cookie of life!​