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No kidding?As soon as you use a solar powered flashlight the flashlight is not a closed system. Why is this so hard to understand?
Kinda like discussing the definition of "faith" with an atheist, isn't it?In my experience, asking an engineer about physics is like asking a dentist about gastroenterology.
Just a few weeks ago I had a talk with an experienced engineer with a degree in physics, and he is a creationist. His main argument for creation was the violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, he kept saying that life decreases entropy...It took me like half an hour to explain to him how increasing entropy and 2nd law applies to closed systems, and a decrease in entropy in an open system, along with a greater increase in entropy in the bigger system is perfectly compatible with the 2nd law. And I failed at physics in highschool, and he supposedly is an expert in physics .
No kidding?
I almost put an "(open system)" after my remark, but I assumed the reader would know that.
Batteries, in my example, represent a closed system; and the sun, in my example, represents an open system.
Kinda like discussing the definition of "faith" with an atheist, isn't it?
That is correct.Using your analogy, evolution will continue to occur as long as the sun shines, correct?
I said the definition of "faith".Discussing faith with an atheist is like discussing snake oil with a doctor.
Snake oil = a topical extracted from the Enhydris chinensis, used to treat arthritis.Like the definition of snake oil?
Yeah man whatever. Decreasing entropy in an open system doesnt violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, period. Case closed.I see his point though, and I agree with it.
If life doesn't return the same amount of energy it acquires to function, then it is using up energy -- period.
I might turn a flashlight on (closed system) and watch the batteries run down; but even if it was a solar-powered flashlight, it is still not return the same amount of energy back to the universe than it is taking.
Yeah man whatever. Did I say it did?Yeah man whatever. Decreasing entropy in an open system doesnt violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, period. Case closed.
Fair enough.You said that you agree with his point. I said that his point was the violation of the 2nd law. There is no violation of the 2nd law.
Snake oil = a topical extracted from the Enhydris chinensis, used to treat arthritis.
AV, entropy and energy are not the same things. Entropy is a subset of energy: entropy is energy available to do work.I see his point though, and I agree with it.
If life doesn't return the same amount of energy it acquires to function, then it is using up energy -- period.
Actually, it is. The energy in the batteries is returning to the universe. However, that energy is in the form of photons that are not capable of doing any work.I might turn a flashlight on (closed system) and watch the batteries run down; but even if it was a solar-powered flashlight, it is still not return the same amount of energy back to the universe than it is taking.
Not necessarily. I have seen most atheists misdefine "faith". It's in their interest to misdefine it, just as it is in the interest of the creationists at the Missouri Center for Creation to misdefine terms in evolution: The Devil's Dictionary of Evolution For All True ScholarsAsking an atheist about the definition of faith is like asking a doctor about the definition of snake oil. You will not get the answer you are looking for, but it is the right answer.
To say that atheists are different from all these examples when it comes to "faith" is a case of Special Pleading.Asking a creationist about the definition of evolution is like asking a politician about the definition of honesty, asking Bernie Madoff about the definition of sound investments, and asking a snake oil salesman about the definition of quality health care.
It's more accurate to say life can occur.Using your analogy, evolution will continue to occur as long as the sun shines, correct?
Just a few weeks ago I had a talk with an experienced engineer with a degree in physics, and he is a creationist. His main argument for creation was the violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, he kept saying that life decreases entropy...It took me like half an hour to explain to him how increasing entropy and 2nd law applies to closed systems, and a decrease in entropy in an open system, along with a greater increase in entropy in the bigger system is perfectly compatible with the 2nd law. And I failed at physics in highschool, and he supposedly is an expert in physics .
Not necessarily. I have seen most atheists misdefine "faith". It's in their interest to misdefine it, just as it is in the interest of the creationists at the Missouri Center for Creation to misdefine terms in evolution: The Devil's Dictionary of Evolution For All True Scholars
To say that atheists are different from all these examples when it comes to "faith" is a case of Special Pleading.
Not necessarily. I have seen most atheists misdefine "faith".
It's in their interest to misdefine it,
To say that atheists are different from all these examples when it comes to "faith" is a case of Special Pleading.
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