Deuteronomy 29

[Gary K]

I have been studying this chapter off and on for quite a while. Sometimes I think I'm "getting" it, and other times, like now, I'm not so sure.

In verse four Moses tells the people that God has not chosen to give them hearts to understand, eyes to see, and ears to hear. Why would God choose to do that? There must be a very good reason for God doesn't withhold good gifts from His children. So what reason did he have for withholding these very good gifts?

I believe that the answer is found in Deuteronomy and most likely in chapter 29 as Moses doesn't change the subject in chapter 29.. But exactly what the answer is, I don't know.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this.

 

[disciple Clint]

I have been studying this chapter off and on for quite a while. Sometimes I think I'm "getting" it, and other times, like now, I'm not so sure.

In verse four Moses tells the people that God has not chosen to give them hearts to understand, eyes to see, and ears to hear. Why would God choose to do that? There must be a very good reason for God doesn't withhold good gifts from His children. So what reason did he have for withholding these very good gifts?

I believe that the answer is found in Deuteronomy and most likely in chapter 29 as Moses doesn't change the subject in chapter 29.. But exactly what the answer is, I don't know.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this.

here are some commentaries on the verse you have a question about, maybe one of these answers will help you. https://www.studylight.org/commentary/deuteronomy/29-4.html

 

[Gary K]

here are some commentaries on the verse you have a question about, maybe one of these answers will help you. https://www.studylight.org/commentary/deuteronomy/29-4.html

Thanks for that very useful link. I'd like to hear your personal opinion taken from those commentaries.

 

[eleos1954]

I have been studying this chapter off and on for quite a while. Sometimes I think I'm "getting" it, and other times, like now, I'm not so sure.

In verse four Moses tells the people that God has not chosen to give them hearts to understand, eyes to see, and ears to hear. Why would God choose to do that? There must be a very good reason for God doesn't withhold good gifts from His children. So what reason did he have for withholding these very good gifts?

I believe that the answer is found in Deuteronomy and most likely in chapter 29 as Moses doesn't change the subject in chapter 29.. But exactly what the answer is, I don't know.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this.

Rebelion .... God withheld understanding .... because of their rebelion.

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living in a rebellious house. They have eyes to see but do not see, and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious house.

 

[Gary K]

Rebelion .... God withheld understanding .... because of their rebelion.

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living in a rebellious house. They have eyes to see but do not see, and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious house.

I think that is a pretty good answer.

I've been thinking on this since I posted this thread.

I went to visit a friend this morning about this and during that conversation what I believe to be the answer, of which your answer is a part, occurred to me.

When Jesus healed the two blind men he told them their request for healing would be done to them according to their faith. So it was the Israelite's lack of faith that meant God couldn't heal their lack of spiritual understanding. This same lesson is true for us too. It is our lack of faith which holds back our spiritual development too. God can't do for us what we don't believe he can do.

Paul talks about this in Hebrews 3 when he speaks to the Israelite carcases left in the wilderness because of unbelief.

Their rebellion was a big part of their lack of faith in God.

 

[eleos1954]

I think that is a pretty good answer.

I've been thinking on this since I posted this thread.

I went to visit a friend this morning about this and during that conversation what I believe to be the answer, of which your answer is a part, occurred to me.

When Jesus healed the two blind men he told them their request for healing would be done to them according to their faith. So it was the Israelite's lack of faith that meant God couldn't heal their lack of spiritual understanding. This same lesson is true for us too. It is our lack of faith which holds back our spiritual development too. God can't do for us what we don't believe he can do.

Paul talks about this in Hebrews 3 when he speaks to the Israelite carcases left in the wilderness because of unbelief.

Their rebellion was a big part of their lack of faith in God.

God can't do for us what we don't believe he can do.

This is key! ;o)

Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:9
Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:22
This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."

Galatians 3:6
So also, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

James 2:23
And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called a friend of God.

 

[Gary K]

deleted

 

[HIM]

I have been studying this chapter off and on for quite a while. Sometimes I think I'm "getting" it, and other times, like now, I'm not so sure.

In verse four Moses tells the people that God has not chosen to give them hearts to understand, eyes to see, and ears to hear. Why would God choose to do that? There must be a very good reason for God doesn't withhold good gifts from His children. So what reason did he have for withholding these very good gifts?

I believe that the answer is found in Deuteronomy and most likely in chapter 29 as Moses doesn't change the subject in chapter 29.. But exactly what the answer is, I don't know.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this.

Happy Sabbath Gary K!


Until this Day
Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

As they were about to enter into the promise land they were also entering into a new covenant with God beside the one at Horeb.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

This Covenant was just laid out before them in chapter 28.

Deut 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
Deut 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:


The seeing and hearing was experienced but not perceived in it's entirety in their 40 years of wondering. So the blessings of a life through God and His Spirit are spelled out for all to see and hear in this New Covenant. As well as a Life outside of one lived outside of His Spirit.

Deut 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
Deut 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
Deut 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

In Him and only in and through Him is Life. Blessings through Him or cursed without Him. It is our choice as it was theirs's.

Deut 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deut 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deut 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deut 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

But they as we were not left on their own. The blessing of God, as was said above can only be experienced in and through Him. Nothing New under the sun.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

With verses 30:6,10-14 in mind do you see how the New Covenant Jeremiah spoke of was not actually New at all. But was actually conditional upon the time in which one accepted it? Do you see?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

He keeps trying to unite us with Him. Shall we accept?
The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[HIM]

I appreciate you answering but I don't know that I can agree with you because of other texts in both the OT and the NT.

One of the other themes of the book of Deuteronomy, as you know, is the blessings and cursings jn which God first tells the Israelites to circumcise their hearts(Deuteronomy 10:16) and then later on promises to circumcise their hearts for them if they will turn to Him after they had gone off the rails and rebelled against Him. (Deuteronomy 30:6) The circumcision of the heart is the same thing as being born again which Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a master in Israel and not understanding (John 3:3-10) and can only come about through the power of the Holy Spirit.

That David understood this concept should be well-known because of his prayer in Psalms 51 after the killing of Uriah so David could have Bathsheba. He pleaded with God for a clean heart and that God would renew a right spirit within him. That he had fallen that deeply into sin told David he was completely off the rails with his relationship with God and needed a complete renewal of his heart.

I see you see lol. May the Lord continue to bless us in all His Way; Jesus Christ.

 

[Gary K]

Happy Sabbath Gary K!


Until this Day
Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

As they were about to enter into the promise land they were also entering into a new covenant with God beside the one at Horeb.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

This Covenant was just laid out before them in chapter 28.

Deut 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
Deut 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:


The seeing and hearing was experienced but not perceived in it's entirety in their 40 years of wondering. So the blessings of a life through God and His Spirit are spelled out for all to see and hear in this New Covenant. As well as a Life outside of one lived outside of His Spirit.

Deut 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
Deut 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
Deut 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

In Him and only in and through Him is Life. Blessings through Him or cursed without Him. It is our choice as it was theirs's.

Deut 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deut 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deut 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deut 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

But they as we were not left on their own. The blessing of God, as was said above can only be experienced in and through Him. Nothing New under the sun.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

With verses 30:6,10-14 in mind do you see how the New Covenant Jeremiah spoke of was not actually New at all. But was actually conditional upon the time in which one accepted it? Do you see?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

He keeps trying to unite us with Him. Shall we accept?
The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

One of the extremely interesting passages in Deuteronomy is the following one.

Deuteronomy 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

This law/covenant was not placed beneath the mercy seat as the 10 commandments were, and was to be used as a witness against them. I believe Paul referred to this in Colossians.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The only law/covenant found in scripture that was to be used as a witness against anyone is this law/covenant stored outside the ark of the covenant, and not under the mercy seat, that Moses said was a witness against Israel. I believe it was this that was nailed to the cross. It was not the 10 commandments as all violations of them were covered by the mercy seat, and thus by God's mercy.

 

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[BobRyan]

Rebelion .... God withheld understanding .... because of their rebelion.

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living in a rebellious house. They have eyes to see but do not see, and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious house.

Matt 13 comes to mind -- right after Matt 12 where the Jews accused Jesus of being of the devil and accused the Holy Spirit of being the work of satan.

10 And the disciples came up and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 And Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘You shall keep on listening, but shall not understand;
And you shall keep on looking, but shall not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

Jesus blesses His Jewish disciples as well as the Jewish John the baptizer and his disciples as those who do see and hear. And in Matt 27 many OT saints resurrected along with Jesus ... in Heb 11 a long list of the giants of faith in the O.T.

The Holy Spirit supernaturally "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - including all of humanity in the O.T. - and some reject it while others accept it.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" -

But then the next verse points out that some did accept -
John 1:12 "but to as many as received Him - to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God (Children of God)"

The parable of the talents also applies here "To him who does not have - even what he has will be taken away and given to someone else" - the "talent" is "The knowledge of God". Is someone does not use it and learn more - share it and become informed and transformed by it... then even what they "used to know" they - no longer know.

Have you ever run into an X-SDA who that you used to know as an SDA - then when you meet them many years later - they no longer know even what they used to know about what the Bible teaches?

 

[eleos1954]

Matt 13 comes to mind -- right after Matt 12 where the Jews accused Jesus of being of the devil and accused the Holy Spirit of being the work of satan.

10 And the disciples came up and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 And Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘You shall keep on listening, but shall not understand;
And you shall keep on looking, but shall not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

Jesus blesses His Jewish disciples as well as the Jewish John the baptizer and his disciples as those who do see and hear. And in Matt 27 many OT saints resurrected along with Jesus ... in Heb 11 a long list of the giants of faith in the O.T.

The Holy Spirit supernaturally "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - including all of humanity in the O.T. - and some reject it while others accept it.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" -

But then the next verse points out that some did accept -
John 1:12 "but to as many as received Him - to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God (Children of God)"

The parable of the talents also applies here "To him who does not have - even what he has will be taken away and given to someone else" - the "talent" is "The knowledge of God". Is someone does not use it and learn more - share it and become informed and transformed by it... then even what they "used to know" they - no longer know.

Have you ever run into an X-SDA who that you used to know as an SDA - then when you meet them many years later - they no longer know even what they used to know about what the Bible teaches?

itchy ears I suppose ....

I am not SDA perse ..... after I came to the Lord I took the top 5 religious beliefs (some were easily dismissed) and then did a process of elimination through comparison .... I will say after comparing with His Word that SDA interpretations/teachings are most in line with it. Makes both logical and biblical sense.

 

[Gary K]

Matt 13 comes to mind -- right after Matt 12 where the Jews accused Jesus of being of the devil and accused the Holy Spirit of being the work of satan.

10 And the disciples came up and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 And Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘You shall keep on listening, but shall not understand;
And you shall keep on looking, but shall not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

Jesus blesses His Jewish disciples as well as the Jewish John the baptizer and his disciples as those who do see and hear. And in Matt 27 many OT saints resurrected along with Jesus ... in Heb 11 a long list of the giants of faith in the O.T.

The Holy Spirit supernaturally "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 - including all of humanity in the O.T. - and some reject it while others accept it.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" -

But then the next verse points out that some did accept -
John 1:12 "but to as many as received Him - to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God (Children of God)"

The parable of the talents also applies here "To him who does not have - even what he has will be taken away and given to someone else" - the "talent" is "The knowledge of God". Is someone does not use it and learn more - share it and become informed and transformed by it... then even what they "used to know" they - no longer know.

Have you ever run into an X-SDA who that you used to know as an SDA - then when you meet them many years later - they no longer know even what they used to know about what the Bible teaches?

I agree with your post.

I do have a question for you though.

Why use the version you did in quoting John 1:12? The only way to truly become a child of God is to become a partaker of the divine nature for then we are truly the sons of God. This can only happen through the power of the Holy Spirit which God has promised to those who will fully commit themselves to Him. That is not a right. It is a gift.