Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If she doesn't scream she's guilty??? TW: Rape

[Sune]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

 

[HTacianas]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

It's interpreted as written. When a man attacks a woman it is likely that she will scream out for help. Within a city her neighbors would hear her scream and come to help her. Notice that it does not describe how they are found out. I assume it is a case where someone walks in and catches them in the act of adultery. It does not specify what questions are asked of them, what witnesses are called, etc. But the presumption is that it was consensual.

Notice that the same act outside of a city it is presumed that the man did in fact rape her. But again, it does not describe the entire circumstance.

 

[GDL]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

Reason together all of the instruction about such things in Torah. A few thoughts:

IF:

1. All young women are taught this, so it becomes an immediate response, and
2. All young men are taught that this response will take place, and
3. All young men and women are taught what the penalties will be if they don't act properly, and
4. Society is taught to assist people in need, and
5. People do not assist as mandated, and
6. Society follows through on legal and severe punishments for all lawlessness, then
   1. How many of such crimes will occur?

There is extensive structure in God's Law that all needs to be considered when looking at these verses. Everybody in the society had responsibilities to do their part and the context of the love neighbor command in Leviticus 19:18 is to call out your neighbor for not doing what they're supposed to be doing, but not to avenge yourself.

When the last verse says to purge evil, it means it, and all not-following of the law is evil. There is also instruction and counseling in judging that includes impartiality, wisdom, compassion, and mercy.

 

[miamited]

Hi @Sune

I think it well to consider the times. Yes, today a woman might not scream if she is so terrified as to be 'frozen' in fear. After all, today a man might have her at gunpoint. However, as was pointed out, Jewish people knew the law. So every young woman knew that to save her own life, in the case of a sexual attack, she'd better put up a fight.

Today, obviously we don't use that understanding to determine whether a woman has been raped or not. But 4,000 years ago, everyone, certainly in towns or villages, would be heard screaming since there were no glass windows or highly insulated buildings.

God bless,
Ted

 

[SkyWriting]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

Think about Jesus standing on a gentle hill with children gathers around his feet.
Ask yourself if you can consider what is being said as coming from Jesus to the gathering.


If not, then dump it. That's my rule of thumb.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

I dont think she is a rape victim.

 

[Strong in Him]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

As no one stones people to death for rape/adultery anymore - at least, not in this part of the world - I don't think we need worry too much about it.

 

[GDL]

Think about Jesus standing on a gentle hill with children gathers around his feet.
Ask yourself if you can consider what is being said as coming from Jesus to the gathering.


If not, then dump it. That's my rule of thumb.

You mean this Jesus?

NKJ Revelation 1:12-16 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Now little kiddies, I want to talk to you about rape...

 

[SkyWriting]

You mean this Jesus?

NKJ Revelation 1:12-16 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Now little kiddies, I want to talk to you about rape...

I meant the real one. Not the virtual Jesus found in visions and dreams.

The one you are considering is in the future and the description is not valid for the real world. That Jesus, is described by an observer who is already dead in our future.

 

[GDL]

I meant the real one. Not the virtual Jesus found in visions and dreams.

The one you are considering is in the future and the description is not valid for the real world. That Jesus is described as the observer is already dead.

Eschatology aside, I know...it's the real Jesus who is love but never judgment, always kind but never harsh, loves everything and everyone but doesn't hate unrighteousness, the God who is always kind but never severe. This virtual Jesus - God the Son - you mention, authored the Law that mandated capital punishment, and as the Judge will be sending people to the second death. "That Jesus...is already dead"???

 

[disciple Clint]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

Well one could be do not have sex and then later call it rape when it never was.

 

[SkyWriting]

Eschatology aside, I know...it's the real Jesus who is love but never judgment, always kind but never harsh, loves everything and everyone but doesn't hate unrighteousness, the God who is always kind but never severe. This virtual Jesus - God the Son - you mention, authored the Law that mandated capital punishment, and as the Judge will be sending people to the second death.

It was the Father who created laws, and the son that fulfilled all the laws and replaced them.
People don't get sent to their death at judgment, it's just the result of not being saved from the inevitable result of sin. Jesus saves us from that death. It's a free gift.

 

[GDL]

It was the Father who created laws, and the son that fulfilled all the laws and replaced them.
People don't get sent to their death at judgment, it's just the result of not being saved from the inevitable result of sin. Jesus saves us from that death. It's a free gift.

Believe in the Godhead - 3 Persons?
Replaced God's Laws with what?
No second death spoken of in Scripture?

 

[SkyWriting]

Replaced God's Laws with what?

Sure.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

 

[SkyWriting]

No second death spoken of in Scripture?

People don't get sent to their death at judgment,
it's the result of not being saved from the
inevitable result of sin.

 

[GDL]

Sure.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

I agree with a New Covenant, but my questions was, Replaced God's Laws with what?

 

[GDL]

People don't get sent to their death at judgment,
it's the result of not being saved from the
inevitable result of sin.

The "second death" in Revelation, 2; 20 & 21 refers to what?

I note you bypassed my first question about who wrote God's Law. Reason?

 

[Griff340]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

My understanding of this passage is that the woman has promised herself to the man and although only engaged, she has still broken her word dishonouring the marriage before she has even entered it. Unfortunately we have no idea of the conversation that took place, but with the scriptures insight he must of known the woman was engaged and so committed an act against God (Leviticus 20:10 / 1 Thessalonians 4:6-8).

Notice how verse 22 says 'lies down with her' as opposed to 'overpowering her' in verse 25. The difference in phrasing tells me the woman was complicate in committing such a sin. Especially with it being in a city where help would have been so quick, should she have needed it. Again the phrasing leads me to believe that the woman had some history with the man. 'e.g She happened to bump into bob in the shop...' rather than 'She met a second man...' etc.

Did you ever get that feeling when you haven't seen someone in a long time, your stomach jumps and you can't think properly? I think her judgement was clouded and she chose to engage in this sin. Even if this was the case, she still committed an act detestable to God and in favour of the devil. Even if she was tricked/misguided she is still guilty of the sin. Just as eve was guilty when she took the apple, and with the date being before Jesus the punishments were much harsher.

Now I would interpret 'so you must remove what is bad out of Israel' and 'so you must remove what is evil from your midst' as advice on breaking off the relationship and removing myself from this situation as well as any seeds of temptation. Hebrews 13:4 - Let marriage be Honorable among all, and let the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge sexual immoral people and adulterers. If we throw in this scripture for guidance we can see that if the man was to marry her the marriage would not be to Gods standard.

 

[Griff340]

... whoops still learning the forum didn't mean to reply twice

 

[Sketcher]

23 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Hi all, I find this passage troubling given that many rape victims freeze rather than resist... Any tips on how to interpret this passage?

That doesn't describe a rape victim, that describes a woman willingly meeting the man for a discreet encounter. It says nothing to indicate that this encounter was forced, and if a woman freezes at the point of a weapon or something, that's a different circumstance. Verse 25 describes a rape.

Verse 23: "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her . . ."

Verse 25: "But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die."