Deutercanonical Citations in the New Testament

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 16, 2015

There are no quotes of the DEUTEROcanonical books in the NT. There are a FEW cases where similar things can be found in each but that has nothing whatsoever to do with a quote. Nor does it have anything whatsoever to do with an endorsement of those DEUTERO books as..... anything.

barryatlake · Feb 16, 2015

Hebrews 11:35 is an indisputable reference to 2 Maccabees 7, but many are not so clear as there may be only a single phrase that echoes one in a deuterocanonical book (and this may not be obvious in the translation,'' but only the original languages " ].

This is the same with New Testament references to the protocanonical books of the Old Testament

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 16, 2015

barryatlake said:
Hebrews 11:35 is an indisputable reference to 2 Maccabees 7, but many are not so clear as there may be only a single phrase that echoes one in a deuterocanonical book (and this may not be obvious in the translation,'' but only the original languages " ].

This is the same with New Testament references to the protocanonical books of the Old Testament

I can't find anything that remotely indicates that Hebrews 11:35 is a quote AT ALL..... of anything.

.

simonthezealot · Feb 16, 2015

Fantastic 7b's

Reminds me of a thread we worked on putting ecf snippets into proper context.

bbbbbbb · Feb 16, 2015

CaliforniaJosiah said:
I can't find anything that remotely indicates that Hebrews 11:35 is a quote AT ALL..... of anything..

Quite true. For the benefit of all I will address Barry's pairing as it does not appear on the list he originally provided.

Hebrews 11:35 is an indisputable reference to 2 Maccabees 7

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, In Isaac your descendants shall be called. 19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the kings edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11 is the famous chapter on faith and is filled with numerous direct and indirect Old Testament references.

II Maccabees 7:1 It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king to force them to eat pork in violation of Gods law. 2 One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: What do you expect to learn by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors. 3 At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated. 4 These were quickly heated, and he gave the order to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on. 5 When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, with these words: 6 The Lord God is looking on and truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his song, when he openly bore witness, saying, And God will have compassion on his servants.
7 After the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb? 8 Answering in the language of his ancestors, he said, Never! So he in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. 9With his last breath he said: You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up* to live again forever, because we are dying for his laws.
10 After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put forth his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely stretched out his hands, 11 as he spoke these noble words: It was from Heaven that I received these; for the sake of his laws I disregard them; from him I hope to receive them again. 12 Even the king and his attendants marveled at the young mans spirit, because he regarded his sufferings as nothing.
13 After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. 14When he was near death, he said, It is my choice to die at the hands of mortals with the hope that God will restore me to life; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life.
15 They next brought forward the fifth brother and maltreated him. 16 Looking at the king, he said: Mortal though you are, you have power over human beings, so you do what you please. But do not think that our nation is forsaken by God. 17 Only wait, and you will see how his great power will torment you and your descendants.
18 After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such shocking things have happened. 19 Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God.
20 Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother who, seeing her seven sons perish in a single day, bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord. 21 Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly reason with manly emotion, she exhorted each of them in the language of their ancestors with these words: 22 I do not know how you came to be in my womb; it was not I who gave you breath and life, nor was it I who arranged the elements you are made of. 23 Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shaped the beginning of humankind and brought about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law.
24 Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office. 25 When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life. 26 After he had urged her for a long time, she agreed to persuade her son. 27 She leaned over close to him and, in derision of the cruel tyrant, said in their native language: Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age. 28 I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things.* In the same way humankind came into existence. 29 Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with your brothers.
30 She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: What is the delay? I will not obey the kings command. I obey the command of the law given to our ancestors through Moses. 31 But you, who have contrived every kind of evil for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. 32 We, indeed, are suffering because of our sins. 33 Though for a little while our living Lord has been angry, correcting and chastising us, he will again be reconciled with his servants. 34 But you, wretch, most vile of mortals, do not, in your insolence, buoy yourself up with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of heaven. 35 You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. 36 Our brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under Gods covenant. But you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance. 37 Like my brothers, I offer up my body and my life for our ancestral laws, imploring God to show mercy soon to our nation, and by afflictions and blows to make you confess that he alone is God. 38 Through me and my brothers, may there be an end to the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation.
39 At that, the king became enraged and treated him even worse than the others, since he bitterly resented the boys contempt. 40 Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the Lord. 41 Last of all, after her sons, the mother was put to death. 42Enough has been said about the sacrificial meals and the excessive cruelties.

This is a lengthy account of the death by torture of seven sons and their mother who refused to eat pork. There is not a single word in the entire chapter about anyone being resurrected or even the hope of resurrection. Thus, there is no connection between this chapter and Hebrews 11:35.

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

CaliforniaJosiah said:
There are no quotes of the DEUTEROcanonical books in the NT. There are a FEW cases where similar things can be found in each but that has nothing whatsoever to do with a quote. Nor does it have anything whatsoever to do with an endorsement of those DEUTERO books as..... anything.

So would you say that being quoted in the NT is a necessary requirement for an OT book to be canonical?

bbbbbbb · Feb 17, 2015

tz620q said:
So would you say that being quoted in the NT is a necessary requirement for an OT book to be canonical?

That is not the point of this thread. Barry asserted that the DC is referenced frequently in the NT and provided a list of alleged citations. Apparently he, and others, believe that because the OT is referenced frequently in the NT there is a verification of the legitimacy of the OT as being the Word of God. It then follows that if the DC is equally referenced its legitimacy is equally valid. The converse is also true. If it is not referenced its legitimacy is called into question. We see this sort of problem in the rare citations of non-OT sources in the NT as in Paul's quotation in his sermon on Mars Hill.

barryatlake · Feb 17, 2015

My Protestant brothers, the first early Christians used the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint. It included the seven deuterocanonical books. For this reason, the Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly writes, "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive [than the Protestant Bible]. . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books" (, 53). The authors of the New Testament quoted freely from the Septuagint—over 300 times.

Jerome and Augustine disagreed about the deuterocanonical books
as did other early Christians. Numerous Church Fathers quoted the deuterocanonical books as Scripture (see The Old Testament Canon ), while some did not.

Jerome appears to have rejected most of the deuterocanonical parts of Scripture. But he did accept portions and INCLUDED ALL SEVEN BOOKS in his Latin translation of Scripture, known as the Vulgate. Ultimately, he recognized that THE CHURCH ALONE had the AUTHORITY to determine the canon.

Since there was disagreement between some Church Fathers, it became obvious that no individual could provide an infallible list of inspired books. The bottom line: "We have no other assurance that the books of Moses, the four Gospels, and the other books are the true word of God," wrote Augustine, "but by the canon of the Catholic Church."

Since it is unreasonable to expect every person to read all of the books of antiquity and judge for himself if they are inspired, the question boils down to WHOSE AUTHORITY is to be trusted in this matter. One must either trust a rabbinical school that rejected the New Testament 60 years after Christ established a Church, or one must trust the Church He established.

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 17, 2015

barryatlake said:
My Protestant brothers, the first early Christians used the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint. It included the seven deuterocanonical books.

It included MORE than 7. The RCC removed a bunch of them so that it does NOT accept the LXX's canon for the OT.

It also disagrees with the OOC on this - and always has.
It also disagrees with the EOC on this - and always has.

The RCC has a UNIQUE canon, a UNIQUE Bible - and always has.

It disagrees with the LXX.
It disagrees with the OOC.
It disagrees with the EOC.
It disagrees with many medieval RCC Bibles.
It disagrees with all but it itself, exclusively, individually, currently.

It has a SMALLER OT than the LXX.
It has a SMALLER tome than the OOC.
It has a SMALLER tome than the EOC.
It has a SMALLER tome than many medieval RCC bibles.
It has a SMALLER tome than the Anglican Church.
It has a SMALLER tome than Luther's German translation.

The authors of the New Testament quoted freely from the Septuagintover 300 times.

So far, you've not provided even one quote of such in the NT. Not even one, much less 300.

.

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 17, 2015

So would you say that being quoted in the NT is a necessary requirement for an OT book to be canonical?

No. I simply responded to the claim that there are 300 QUOTES of some DEUTERO books in the NT. No one has provided even one - much less 300. It was a Catholic insisting that being quoted in the NT is proof that the RCC's unique set of DEUTER books is THEREFORE canonical; I simply noted that there are no such quotes..... of any DEUTERO book..... much less each of the unique set of them accepted currently by the individual, exclusive RC Denomination.

Thank you!

Pax

- Josiah

.

barryatlake · Feb 17, 2015

CaliforniaJosiah, you haven't a clue, go back and do your homework

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
That is not the point of this thread. Barry asserted that the DC is referenced frequently in the NT and provided a list of alleged citations. Apparently he, and others, believe that because the OT is referenced frequently in the NT there is a verification of the legitimacy of the OT as being the Word of God. It then follows that if the DC is equally referenced its legitimacy is equally valid. The converse is also true. If it is not referenced its legitimacy is called into question. We see this sort of problem in the rare citations of non-OT sources in the NT as in Paul's quotation in his sermon on Mars Hill.

I happen to agree with you in that Quotation does not equal Inspiration and hence canonicity has to have some other basis. I don't think Catholic's are alone in using that false criteria though. So does this thread have a purpose beyond you and BarryatLake looking at the deuterocanonical books from within your relative camps and saying, "I see it", "Well I don't".

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 17, 2015

barryatlake said:
CaliforniaJosiah, you haven't a clue, go back and do your homework

Since you claim that there are 300 quotes of the RCC's unique set of DEUTERO books in the NT, then.... post them. So far, you've not provided one - much less 300 of them.

Nor have you provide why such would matter..... at all..... for anything.

.

barryatlake · Feb 17, 2015

In the New Testament, there are references to a third letter from Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor 5:9) and of a letter of his to the Laodiceans (Col 4:16; though many have thought this letter to the Laodiceans is the same as the letter to the Ephesians). Such books may have been inspired, but for some reason God chose not to have them passed down and have that book included in the canon by His Catholic Church.

The fact that Jude (verses 14-15) quotes from the Book of Enoch mean that this book should be in our Bible?

No more than the fact Paul quotes pagan poets (Acts 17:28) means their writings should be included in Scripture. A biblical author can cite a non-canonical writing as illustrative of a point he wants to make without suggesting everything included in that writing is authentic or from God.

barryatlake · Feb 17, 2015

No book of the Bible claims itself to be divinely inspired. Divine inspiration means that God himself authored the exact words of the text (using the human writer's mind, personality, and background), and no book states anything like, "All of the words of this book were chosen by God" or "This book is divinely inspired."

The term inspired (Greek, theopneustos) only occurs once in the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16), where we are told that all Scripture is inspired. We first know that something is Scripture and then infer that it is inspired; we do not first know that it is inspired and then conclude it is Scripture.

There are some references to inspiration in cases where one book of the Bible reports that God or the Spirit spoke through the words of a different book (for example, see Hebrews 3:7-11, concerning Psalm 95). But in no case does a book of the Bible state this for itself. Even if it does claim to contain divine revelations or visions (as does the book of Revelation), it does not say that every word of its text was inspired. That is something we must infer from 2 Timothy 3:16. Since no protocanonical book of the Bible meets the proposed test, it can scarcely be expected of the deuterocanonical books.

Claiming to be inspired is a different thing from really being inspired. The Book of Mormon claims to be the Word of God, but isn't; the Gospel of John doesn't, but is. To determine inspiration, one must use an external authority for verification, and the "Church" is the only institution that can be that external authority.

tz620q · Feb 17, 2015

CaliforniaJosiah said:
No. I simply responded to the claim that there are 300 QUOTES of some DEUTERO books in the NT. No one has provided even one - much less 300. It was a Catholic insisting that being quoted in the NT is proof that the RCC's unique set of DEUTER books is THEREFORE canonical; I simply noted that there are no such quotes..... of any DEUTERO book..... much less each of the unique set of them accepted currently by the individual, exclusive RC Denomination.

Thank you!

Pax

- Josiah

.

Actually BarryatLake in his initial list did not use the word quote or citation. He said that one could compare a list of NT quotes with related quotes of DC books. Comparison does not mean that the NT text is a word for word citation of the DC text. It also does not mean that you cannot find other OT texts that relate to the NT quote. 7b's added the requirement of it being a citation; therefore changing the criteria. Can we all agree that this a moot argument since none of us here accept quotation as necessary for canonization?

barryatlake · Feb 17, 2015

Very well said tz629q.

bbbbbbb · Feb 17, 2015

barryatlake said:
CaliforniaJosiah, you haven't a clue, go back and do your homework

Since you have obviously not done your homework, I am doing it for you here and in public for all to review and examine.

bbbbbbb · Feb 17, 2015

tz620q said:
I happen to agree with you in that Quotation does not equal Inspiration and hence canonicity has to have some other basis. I don't think Catholic's are alone in using that false criteria though. So does this thread have a purpose beyond you and BarryatLake looking at the deuterocanonical books from within your relative camps and saying, "I see it", "Well I don't".

Actually, it is pretty much as you say. Barry and several other posters of his type have, at various times, presented lists of alleged citatations of the DC in the NT as if these support their claims of canonicity of the DC. It is high time that these lists be put to rest and the matter settled, don't you think?

bbbbbbb · Feb 17, 2015

tz620q said:
Actually BarryatLake in his initial list did not use the word quote or citation. He said that one could compare a list of NT quotes with related quotes of DC books. Comparison does not mean that the NT text is a word for word citation of the DC text. It also does not mean that you cannot find other OT texts that relate to the NT quote. 7b's added the requirement of it being a citation; therefore changing the criteria. Can we all agree that this a moot argument since none of us here accept quotation as necessary for canonization?

This is incorrect. I do not require a direct citation. A direct reference would be lovely and an indirect reference would also be quite acceptable to me. However, when two passages happen to have one or a few words in common, that does not qualify as a reference. The fact that my cook book uses the word "cook" numerous times and that my telephone book also uses the same word does not prove that one is referencing the other.

Deutercanonical Citations in the New Testament

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