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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
BaconWizard
Regular Member
Wow, that's a HUGE assertion... What basis do you have for saying so, and what if anything makes the same answer any less valid for any random set of circumstances or behaviours I might care to mention?
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If one sees our spiritual awakening as an aspect of the Human evolution, it's not that large of an assertion. If your on that page and look around you can see it happening.
As for randomness of circumstances and of behaviors? I can't say that they are random.
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
Pls forgive the block quote, I am on my phone.
Spiritual awakening is yet another huge assertion. You're most welcome to make a mental or emotional bet that it's so, and I support your right to do so without interference, but if you want to go round telling people that it IS so... Not only that but that it proves your earlier claim, you are going to have to do some serious intellectual jujitsu and show how it is likely if not proven-so.
Good luck with that...
As for randomness I think you have misread me: I can bring a random or indeed not random situation into the conversation, of my choice. Your claim applies to any and all that I may choose to cite? If so, how so? I don't wish to press emotional buttons here, but I could of course use some especial horrible examples, as I am sure you are aware.
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Maybe another way of putting what I'm trying to point towards is in our becoming a more Human, Human Being. I use the word "awakening" because that seems to be what's happening. I know you call it an assertion. And I agree. your right. It's an assertion that through out the evolution of human beings the process has been an awakening.
For both entertainment and information and to give you an idea of what I'm pointing towards, here's a video of Russell Brand on "Awakened Man".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bKQXmvdr8o#t=83
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
I'll look at that when I get home, he's usually both entertaining and at the very least interesting. Often right IMO, too, but not always.
As for your viewpoint re awakening: ok, that's a least an assertion that can be looked-at from a historical and social perspective. I'm not opposed to the idea, and it has occurred to me before, but it's a long leap from there to a position where I can in all conscience act upon it or attempt to affect anyone else.
The experience of life from the POV of a Roman soldier,
Us, someone who is poor in a desert now, someone who owns a PLC now, a Neanderthal.. All very different and yet we know that the potential intelligence and emotional maturity is the same for all (ish)... How much of the rest is technology, communication across boundaries (including time, ie writing) and so on? LOTS, I would suggest.
Where in that picture if you can agree with it, would you place "awakening" rather than natural progress that might also apply to other species potentially and in due-course? Or do you make no distinction?
Finally, your view of awakening as a burgeoning towards our eventuality.. (Is this a fair assessment?) what is to say we will not evolve into something LESS than now? Is there some kind of assumed final goal here? Because I would suggest the evidence so far is to the contrary, except for ultimate entropy. (I regard this entropy as probably long after our species cannot be even inferred from any mark we make upon the universe)
As for your viewpoint re awakening: ok, that's a least an assertion that can be looked-at from a historical and social perspective. I'm not opposed to the idea, and it has occurred to me before, but it's a long leap from there to a position where I can in all conscience act upon it or attempt to affect anyone else.
The experience of life from the POV of a Roman soldier,
Us, someone who is poor in a desert now, someone who owns a PLC now, a Neanderthal.. All very different and yet we know that the potential intelligence and emotional maturity is the same for all (ish)... How much of the rest is technology, communication across boundaries (including time, ie writing) and so on? LOTS, I would suggest.
Where in that picture if you can agree with it, would you place "awakening" rather than natural progress that might also apply to other species potentially and in due-course? Or do you make no distinction?
Finally, your view of awakening as a burgeoning towards our eventuality.. (Is this a fair assessment?) what is to say we will not evolve into something LESS than now? Is there some kind of assumed final goal here? Because I would suggest the evidence so far is to the contrary, except for ultimate entropy. (I regard this entropy as probably long after our species cannot be even inferred from any mark we make upon the universe)
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God's omnicience has nothing to do with predetermination. If you hold to determinism, it is impossible for you to make a truth statement.
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I step back and look at the whole of the cosmos as One and make no distinction. In the same breath, it seems that through the Human Being the Cosmos is able to be aware of itSelf.
Other than becoming more human, and only time will tell what that means, I have no image of any goal in mind except for one thing, and that is that we become more loving, compassionate, forgiving and more willing to help those in need. But that's because of the image I hold of what it means to be a more human, Human Being.
I turn all of that around and look at the mark the universe makes upon us.
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
So true and so funny
Witty, yes. But not true.
Look out! That non-man-made, perfectly smooth, rounded piece of rock which couldn't possibly be ROLLING down hill towards you, and doesn't exist, might crush you...
Cats will never make spears either. But I don't recommend allowing yourself to be trapped between the 4 front, hard, pointy things that are being directed towards your flesh in order to penetrate it and make a hole.
And meanwhile, there are countless things we see in nature that we cannot do.
Unless you can make gravity?
It's a straw-man argument at best.
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It depends upon what kind of wind it is. The Human Breath is a wind. When we follow our breath, aren't we are doing what the wind does.
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
When wind carves out rocks, landscapes deserts, shapes forests and their denizens, moves the tide, changes the weather and so-on, isn't it doing what humans still merely aspire-to? Less-still just one single human as you suggest with YOUR breath...which is merely borrowed wind.
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ForJesusChrist
Follower of Christ
Just because God exists does not mean free will cannot.
Just because God knows all does not mean that we don't have free will.
God just has the most amazing knowledge that He can know things that we do, even when it is our choice.
God Bless
Just because God knows all does not mean that we don't have free will.
God just has the most amazing knowledge that He can know things that we do, even when it is our choice.
God Bless
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
Sheer dumb, sheer ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, failure to address the thread's issue by OP or current concern.
Read some of the forum, learn, come back and try again when you have an argument that is not beneath the contempt even of those who support your faith.
Unless you are a child still at school, in which case this is a tad harsh. A tad...
"Just because God doesn't exist means free will must" being of equal worth: none!
Pathetic. Please think ahead just a little bit, ffs. It's insulting when people make a beginner's argument 2000 yrs after that argument was first put forward and possibly refuted.. its like you don't know anything about your own argument OR your opposition's...
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ForJesusChrist
Follower of Christ
Very sorry I have upset you. I did not know a man cannot own opinions
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BaconWizard
Regular Member
You can own them, sure. And you can be willfully oblivious to actual worthwhile, honest debate too. And I can despise you for it (god's will that I do so, apparently) along with many others who you would think support you. Fill your boots. But still, fail.
Try honesty. Some bloke who is said to have died on a cross for you recommended it quite highly, and so do I.
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ForJesusChrist
Follower of Christ
I have to say you have lost me, I have no idea what you are saying.
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