Determinism

[Jane_the_Bane]

A quantum clock is more precise than a mechanical clock .

I think saying determinism is dead is inncorrect. Just because we lack knowledge of the quantum world dose not mean it is random. Even if it was the end result of random billiard balls bouncing around is still determined beforehand by the natural physics of the universe, and we cannot change that.

I did not say it is random. I said that conceiving of reality as a predetermined sequence of events whose course is already etched in stone (figuratively speaking) is a dead-end street, and has been so for quite a while.
Even the concept of linear time - while certainly helpful for our day-to-day life, just as the notion of matter as something solid rather than 99% nothing, is somewhat fallacious to begin with.

 

[SeventhValley]

If we could form a simulation of last week exactly the same down to the smallest aspect including possible other dimensional influence at the quantum level it would run to exactly where we are today.
1 and 1 equals 2. When 1 and 1 can equal three or two depending on choice then to me we will be closer to free will.

I think soft determinism is just wordsmithing to make us all feel better about the reality of the universe.

 

[SeventhValley]

Truth is we are born on a rail and will die after hitting a point predetermined by physics or genetics.

Life has no meaning and no purpose and we have no ability to change that.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Truth is we are born on a rail and will die after hitting a point predetermined by physics or genetics.

Life has no meaning and no purpose and we have no ability to change that.

That depends on where you locate meaning and purpose.
Life has whatever meaning and purpose we attribute to it, and that is actually WAY better.
Like "free will", I'd call "objective meaning" an oxymoron.

The sacred, the lovely, the sublime, the meaningful, the terrible, the thrilling, the exciting: all categories that exist only in the presence of evaluation, whether it happens on the individual level ("I associate the smell of freshly cut lawns with the happiest memory of my childhood") or on the collective level ("that cave is a holy sanctum").

 

[SeventhValley]

True will,meaning, none of it exists. At least nothing I do wrong is my fault even if I have to suffer the consequences. It is DNA and external circumstances. So there is an upside.

 

[BaconWizard]

True will,meaning, none of it exists. At least nothing I do wrong is my fault even if I have to suffer the consequences. It is DNA and external circumstances. So there is an upside.

That may indeed be true. However, it doesn't change your experience of life, not does it change anyone else's experience of you. And their actions are no doubt similarly motivated if they find the your actions are contrary to a healthy society. So I advise against using that as an excuse for anything lol

 

[AskTheFamily]

There are two type of things, the things that belong to this world, which follow all the laws of physics of the world, everything in this world is deterministic, i.e. how objects interact together. Our brain is no difference, just electrics and chemicals, act like a computer.

The things that belong to the spirit, are where true randomness come from, it can't be determined by the objects in this world (it can be affected by it, so a impaired brain is harder for the spirit to control).

You are just repeating your assertion. Our brain is obviously very complex and not just electrics and chemicals, but something very amazing and complex is produced by it. What knowledge have you of the brain that determines there is no free-will?

You keep asserting it's nothing but a computer but obviously our personality, our emotions, love etc, all occur inside the brain. How do you know the brain can't hold free-will? How do you know it's deterministic?

You don't. You are merely asserting without knowledge.

 

[light upon light]

True will,meaning, none of it exists. At least nothing I do wrong is my fault even if I have to suffer the consequences. It is DNA and external circumstances. So there is an upside.

Maybe so.

And maybe this is simply a rationalization for the abdication of the awful and terrifying and amazing responsibility we all have as human beings to choose. I can certainly sympathize with the sentiment. Knowing that our choices matter - that we actually are accountable for our brief time here on this planet, and the decisions we make - honestly there are many times I'd much prefer to place the blame for all my unkind remarks, selfish actions, and thoughtless deeds elsewhere.

But I really don't think that's the case. And, true or not, I'm quite certain for me, in my own experience that blaming everything on my genes and bouncing atoms doesn't lead me to live a more beautiful and meaningful life. Taking responsibility does.

 

[light upon light]

The current scientific thinking, with much to suggest it (but which remains a hypothesis only) is that our consciousness "bubbles-up" from our subconsciousness.. an effect rather than the cause of decision-making, after the fact.

And what would be the function of that?

Also, consciousness and free will are generally regarded as two separate, orthogonal things.

 

[BaconWizard]

And what would be the function of that?

What makes you think it has one? Perhaps it is merely a side-effect? Although communication could be the thing...

Also, consciousness and free will are generally regarded as two separate, orthogonal things.

Interesting.. so the theory would be that we exercise free will, but only subconsciously?

 

[dcalling]

A quantum clock is more precise than a mechanical clock .

I think saying determinism is dead is inncorrect. Just because we lack knowledge of the quantum world dose not mean it is random. Even if it was the end result of random billiard balls bouncing around is still determined beforehand by the natural physics of the universe, and we cannot change that.

Totally agree! Can't have said better. I would go as far to say that admit of randomness is very close to admit of supernatural.

 

[KCfromNC]

If we could form a simulation of last week exactly the same down to the smallest aspect including possible other dimensional influence at the quantum level it would run to exactly where we are today.

Our understanding of reality means that this hypothetical is impossible even in theory. One of the fun parts of QM is that it is impossible to measure certain things with complete certainty. If you require this for your hypothetical to work, you're not talking about the universe we live in anymore.

 

[light upon light]

What makes you think it has one? Perhaps it is merely a side-effect? Although communication could be the thing...

I think awareness is the primary ground of being for all things.

Indeed, nothing actually exists except as perceived or conceived in awareness. So it doesn't have a function per se - all functions, and everything else, appears within it.

Interesting.. so the theory would be that we exercise free will, but only subconsciously?

I don't have a "theory" of free will. I think free will is axiomatic. We choose, and that is the most fundamental aspect of ourselves apart from innate awareness.

If you wanted to know how free will could exist in the context of the laws of physics, quantum indeterminism shows that physical reality offers degrees of freedom.

 

[dlamberth]

I think awareness is the primary ground of being for all things.

Even trees and plants have an awareness of sorts.

.

 

[SeventhValley]

Our understanding of reality means that this hypothetical is impossible even in theory. One of the fun parts of QM is that it is impossible to measure certain things with complete certainty. If you require this for your hypothetical to work, you're not talking about the universe we live in anymore.

Impossible with current knowledge but not impossible.

 

[bling]

If God exist then all things are predetermined since God knows all.

If God dose not exist then the universe is just a bunch of predetermined billiard balls knocking around in a pattern set since the big bang(maybe even before?).

So how do you come to terms with the fact that you are not in control of your life or even your emotions? If you meditate to feel better then you were predetermined to meditate. If you are depressed and cannot meditate then you are predetermined to not mediate.

I was predetermined to make this post since the Big Bang.

Everything seems rather absurd in that way.

You are restricting God to our time and giving God a “future” (time which has not happen yet for Him).

If God is “outside of time”, and experimentally over the last 100 years we have shown time to be relative, then there really is no “future” in God’s time frame to know.

If for a moment assume God instilled within you the ability to truly make one free will choice (something that is truly your choice to make). If you made that choice yesterday you and God would know what that choice was, so does that mean it was not a free will choice, since today you know what choice it was? Now assume the god today sent that historic information back to Himself in your distant past, would that now mean you did not make a free will choice?

God can know everything there is to know throughout earth’s history as history, but God would not know that which cannot be known, so God would not know the free will choice of an individual that will never exist, but as soon as a person will at some time exist God at the beginning of our time historically knows what he did.

 

[KCfromNC]

Impossible with current knowledge but not impossible.

No, it is not a technological limit. It is a fundamental feature of how our universe works.

 

[dlamberth]

You are restricting God to our time and giving God a “future” (time which has not happen yet for Him).

If God is “outside of time”, and experimentally over the last 100 years we have shown time to be relative, then there really is no “future” in God’s time frame to know.

If for a moment assume God instilled within you the ability to truly make one free will choice (something that is truly your choice to make). If you made that choice yesterday you and God would know what that choice was, so does that mean it was not a free will choice, since today you know what choice it was? Now assume the god today sent that historic information back to Himself in your distant past, would that now mean you did not make a free will choice?

God can know everything there is to know throughout earth’s history as history, but God would not know that which cannot be known, so God would not know the free will choice of an individual that will never exist, but as soon as a person will at some time exist God at the beginning of our time historically knows what he did.

What boggles my mind is how a person can know what God knows, or not.

.

 

[MehGuy]

I'm a hard determinist.

Used to make me depressed, but after a while you can't bring yourself to care anymore.. well, you're predetermined not to care anymore, lol..

Perhaps I should do more study on the subject. I know nothing about quantum mechanics. Even if things are random that doesn't necessitate free will.

I remember there being a study on this. They asked participants to make a decision and they analyzed their brains and found it lit up a few seconds before the person was conscious of the decision they were making.. Sometimes up to seven seconds prior.

 

[dcalling]

I'm a hard determinist.

Used to make me depressed, but after a while you can't bring yourself to care anymore.. well, you're predetermined not to care anymore, lol..

Perhaps I should do more study on the subject. I know nothing about quantum mechanics. Even if things are random that doesn't necessitate free will.

I remember there being a study on this. They asked participants to make a decision and they analyzed their brains and found it lit up a few seconds before the person was conscious of the decision they were making.. Sometimes up to seven seconds prior.

I was a hard determinist as well. I am going to assume you are a engineer as well, since usually logical minds come to this conclusion.

I hold that idea till I realized there must be either a God or a spiritual plan.